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The past was connected

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  • I know this topic should be dead and done, but the pretty recent chapter in which Atlas Flame from the past was exactly the same as the Atlas Flame in modern time; that means that the spirit Atlas Flame was NOT an Alternative Time Line Unlike Future Lucy or Rouge who basically had different past's at this point in time

the past of Atlas Flame was connected which means Zirconis from the past and the spirit are the same, considering how forgetful he seems and loos in the head and how little he values humans, it's more likely that he just forgot about those humans when his spirit was brought back, or maybe that was the limit of Milky Way

He WASN'T an ALTERNATIVE version or anything... again, I know this discussion should be closed, but the info just came out about 2 weeks ago that showed that the past the dragons were from wasn't an alternative timeline.......--Deathmailrock (talk) 07:34, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, because we do have 2 Zirconis. Zirconis (Spirit) was the one we met on Chapter 300, but this Zirconis passed through the gate and etc. The difference is that we had met a Zirconis before the Eclipse Gate was opened and so the one that went through time is considered another one. In Atlas Flame's case, we never met any version of him before he went through the Eclipse Gate. I hope I'm explaining this clearly :P Mudkip BW Marshtomp RSSwampert BW 13:30, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

This is actually debatable because he started calling himself Jade Dragon because of Hisui; the Spirit Zirconis introduced himself that way after all. So there is some connection Miskos3 Message 15:32, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

wait, but how is it different? cause if that's the case then the past Erza when she was a kid should also have her own section, as well as Lucy and Natsu..... they are all from the same timeline..... the spirit Zirconis is the future version of the Zirconis that went through the gate; eventually, the Zirconis that went through the gate became called by Wendy and met with Lucy and the others a 2nd time

The alternative Lucy and Rouge I can understand because they were from an alternative timeline and are counter parts, rather than the exact same being; the same can't be done with the dragon cause his version that went through the timeline was the just the past version, not an alternative, they are the same being....--Deathmailrock (talk) 23:37, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

What? why would them as kids have their own pages? we separated the pages of characters that went through the eclipse gate. that's why the only ones that have other versions are future Lucy, future rogue and zirconis. Mudkip BW Marshtomp RSSwampert BW 02:44, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

The nail in the coffin of the Zirconis spirit we saw being the same Zirconis that past through the gate was Atlas Flame appearing recently. Atlas remembered his time when he went through the gate. The Zirconis spirit however, had no recollection of ever going through the gate nor of Wendy, Natsu and co. Future Rogue changed the timeline by opening the gate. The Zirconis spirit we saw no longer exists in this world as things were changed--GodKingdraPray 04:03,10/12/2013

Giving His magic a name

I know that the name of his magic wasn't named in the manga, but can we give it one? I know we shouldn't create any fanon information, but we gave Satan Soul Halphas' Cosmic Beam a name, we gave Jiemma's Blast magic a name. So I'm thinking of giving the stripping magic a name, Stripping Magic. Or if anyone can think of a better name to not confuse with a magic that strips one's magic magic. ..::ShinShinTo::. 07:10, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

He will unleash his magic in the anime soon(ish). Considering how long the magic remained unnamed, I think it can wait until then to see if they'll give us a bit more information. NoNickNeeded (talk) 08:06, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well that was just his Dragon Breath's ability to demoralize humans by stripping them naked. I'm not sure if a Dragon's Breath is considered Magic or an ability they have though. Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 13:53, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Just because it came out of his mouth doesn't necessarily mean it was his breath attack. For all we know that could be the way Dragons cast the majority of their magic and the reason why Dragon Slayers can cast magic from their hands or any other part of their bodies could just be the Human influence to their powers.
Considering how every other roar was tied to the elemental or materal the Dragon was associated with, it's extremely unlikely that was his Dragon's roar, since there is no element that dissolved clothes. NoNickNeeded (talk) 14:21, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Likewise it's speculation to think that every dragon has an elemental affinity. They are dragons lol. By themselves, without an element, they are a force to be reckoned with. Motherglare didn't have an element and just released a blast of total death from its mouth that destroyed most of a mountain range.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 14:38, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Motherglare was very clearly called an Adamantine Dragon. While it isn't one of the classic four elements, it does fall in the same category as Metalicana. NoNickNeeded (talk) 14:44, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
Motherglare said "Don't underestimate my adamantine body," which is a far cry from calling her the adamantine dragon. And onto another example, Zirconis was christened as The Jade Dragon for his body color, not what he could do. Point being: dragons have the capacity to use magic, but never once was it said that they have to have an element, meaning it is fine as is because there is no evidence to prove otherwise.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 15:06, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
Funny how we end up going back and forth while arguing the same point in regard to the original topic. ^^ NoNickNeeded (talk) 15:21, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed that too. XD
WrathRogue ChibiZero 15:22, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Voice actor confirmed

The credits of Episode 193 confirmed that Zirconis is voiced by Takaya Kuroda, the same seiyū as Arcadios. I imagine that he wasn't listed before because the credits only list one role per seiyū, which tends to be their most important role in that episode. Since Arcadios didn't speak in that episode, he was credited as Zirconis. I've already added the voice to his spirit's page, but seeing how this page is locked, I can't do the same here... Immblueversion (talk) 23:51, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, hello...? It's been so long I requested this, we even know his English voice actor now (Ray Gestaut). Immblueversion (talk) 14:52, August 11, 2015 (UTC)
Lol... It's done. Better late than never? ( ._.) I've also lowered the protection. I also still think it's utter bullshit that this guy has two pages. Miskos3 Message 15:25, August 11, 2015 (UTC)
Read above. The spirit is seperate from the one that passed through the gate. Same deal with Lucy and Future Lucy-- God · Pray · 18:17,8/11/2015 
I've participated in that discussion, thanks. Unlike Lucy and FLucy though, there were never two Zirconis at the same time. The spirit is a deceased passed-through-the-gate Zirconis. Miskos3 Message 18:19, August 11, 2015 (UTC)
Its not though because the timeline changed. The Zirconis spirit never went through the gate. We know this because the deceased Atlas Flame remembered Natsu and everyone. The Zirconis spirit didn't know who they were. When Zirconis passed through the gate, that Zirconis spirit ceased to exist. Quantum Physics Misk! Come on!-- God · Pray · 18:28,8/11/2015 
Zirconis went back through the gate to 400 years ago, eventually got killed by Acnologia and summoned by Wendy and co. later on. The fact that he didn't remember fighting her 400 years ago means absolutely nothing because he thought of them as food. On the other hand, he did remember his 'nickname' that he got from Hisui. Plus there's also the issue of memory problems, as we could see with Atlas. However, the whole point is that Lucy's article got separated because there were two Lucy's acting at the same time and summaries would end up messy as hell. There is no such issue here. The split is unnecessary. They are the same character. Miskos3 Message 18:39, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

Name of Zirconis' Magic

His Magic is unnamed so I think it would need at least a placeholder name for now. I was thinking to name it Humiliation Magic for now since I found it on the manga site (Chapter 330, Page 21). What do you think, guys?DispellingJellal chibiMage 18:09, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. If it's unnamed and has little to no relevance, just leave it unnamed. Placeholder names are unsightly.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 18:15, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

^ Miskos3 Message 18:17, October 17, 2014 (UTC)
^^That-- God · Pray · 18:22,10/17/2014 

Zirconis' Personality

Could we add to Zirconis' Personality that he enjoys conversation, which is very unlike most other dragons? The translation in episode 193 quotes him as saying "I don't just demolish and go on a rampage like the others. I'm the type that enjoys a good conversation. Well, I guess, I'm intelligent and possess refined taste, you could say." He even takes the time to talk to the humans and explain why he and the other dragons are attacking just before attempting to eat them all. He's quite the talkative dragon. I think it's worth mentioning. 72.243.55.22 03:51, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it can be added. Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 04:12, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

Merge :'D

This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is:
Pages will be kept separated.
Please do not edit this discussion.

Well, I'm sure everyone saw it coming as it's been brought up several times in discussions now, I'd like to revisit our decision on splitting Zirconis' page into two, given the result of Zera's discussion. I'd just like to repeat my arguments from there, as there is no reason to overcomplicate things when we can keep all Zirconis-related information on one page without any confusion, unlike in FLucy or FRogue's cases. I disagree with the notion that the 'two' Zirconis are different, as Hisui gave him the nickname which he then used to introduce himself 400 years later as a spirit. So, given these facts and considering what happened to Zera (or didn't), we should, in my opinion, merge the pages for consistency sake, if anything. Thus, I Support Support - the merge. Miskos3 Message 11:37, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Support Support - for consistency. DispellingJellal chibiMage11:43,9/16/2015

Support Support - Consistency. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 11:46, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Support Support - -- The Talk Goblin 11:48, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Oppose - We've discussed this to death. The Spirit from the graveyard and the living dragon are two different characters who just have the same name and appearance. Their roles in the story are different and merging the two pages just because it makes things "less complicated" at the cost of making them wrong. Assuming that the spirit named himself the "Jade Dragon" because of Hisui is speculation. He was not shown to have any memories of meeting the gang even though his memory of the past was crystal clear. He showed no awareness of who the FT Mages were in spite of two of them (Wendy & Carla) working together in an attempt to kill him. Keeping all 'Zirconis-related information' on one page might sound appealing but it is fundamentally wrong because different topics use different pages.

As to the case of Zera, the spirit and the living girl can share the same page since the spirit Mavis made was intended to actually be the Zera and be what Zera would have been if she had lived. In that respect, they are the same in ways that can't be said for this guy. His spirit was a dead dragon killed by Acnologia and brought in via Milky way while the living Dragon was brought in via Eclipse to fight. They're fundamentally different from an in-series and out-of-series perspective and it's been specifically stated by Carla that the spirit and the living Dragon were not the same and putting their information on the same page and acting as if they are is just asinine. King of Uncool 11:54,9/16/2015 

If you've read the Zera discussion, people who were for the split had the same arguments as what you're mentioning in regards to Zirconis, aka them being two different beings, however, that didn't pass, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered reopening this discussion. This is the same thing really. Also, I completely disagree with the notion of the whole Jade thing being a speculation, in fact, we have another dragon who was brought back via Milky Way, Atlas Flame, as a proof that the dragons that came in through Eclipse and the dead ones found "400 years later" are the same beings. I don't see a reason for thinking otherwise. Miskos3 Message 12:05, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
Again, I reiterate that the spirit and living Zera while separate could still be considered one and the same by a certain stretch. That stretch cannot exist for Zirconis because while Zera's spirit was to be the continuation of Zera's existence, the same cannot be said for Zirconis' spirit because the spirit from the graveyard is not the spirit of the beast Wendy fought. In that regard, they aren't the same thing at all. Also, Atlas Flame remembering Natsu inherently proves that this Zirconis is not the same who crossed the gate because of his memory. They're different because Atlas was summoned after the gate issue but Zirconis was summoned before it. Thus Zirconis' history changed and the history of the Zirconis spirit no longer matches up to the history of the one who crosses the gate. Furthermore, there's no issue to say that this "Hisui-naming" issue is speculation. If there's no certifiable proof that the spirit named himself the "Jade Dragon" because of her, then speculation is exactly what it is if you say that he did. They're two different beings and they should be treated as such. Trying to merge these two pages to "stay consistent" with what happened with Zera doesn't work because the facts are different for both characters. King of Uncool 12:11,9/16/2015 
Just want to point out that Zera's article makes a clear distinction between the real and illusion Zera. Nowhere is it implied that they are the same being or that the illusion is Zera's continued existence, just like we don't imply that Brain is dead Brain's continued existence or Zancrow is the dead Zancrow's continued existence. That is speculation. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 12:22, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
Stating the distinction is fine on that article because as I said, keeping it together works because of the circumstances regarding Zera. My point is that those arguments don't hold up for the case of Zirconis. King of Uncool 12:25,9/16/2015 
Zirconis from 400 years ago arrives to present > gets Jade nickname > returns > eventually dies > is revived by Wendy in present, introducing himself as a Jade dragon.
Atlas Flame from 400 years ago arrives to present > meets Natsu > returns > eventually dies > is revived by Wendy in present, remembering Natsu and everything.
I honestly don't see any speculation in what I'm saying, in fact, thinking otherwise is what should be considered a speculation, because all I've said is what the story has told us. Miskos3 Message 12:29, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) Again, what I've been saying is that the Zirconis spirit who was brought via Milky Way is not the spirit of the Zirconis she fought at the gate. There is zero evidence to suggest that he ever met her or Hisui and so stating that that is how he got his nickname is what is speculation. The story has not told us how that spirit got his nickname as a result. This issue of Atlas Flame is over and done with. He was the same one whom Natsu met and fought alongside because he acknowledged him to show it. If the Zirconis spirit in the graveyard had been the one from the gate he would have remembered Wendy at least but he showed no signs of recognizing her or having ever seen her. Acting like the two are the same is wrong and putting all their info on the same page to imply it is wrong too. King of Uncool 12:34,9/16/2015 

Well, I think it's clear we're both reading into the issue differently, imo there isn't even reason for Zirconis and Atlas to be any different, their circumstances are the same, all we've seen about them in the GMG and Sun Village arcs is enough of evidence. I get the Wendy argument, but one could also argue that Zirconis wouldn't give a damn about some "food" that he was trying to eat 400 years ago. Miskos3 Message 12:42, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
Far as I see, the two are plenty different given their roles in the story and how they were portrayed in their appearances. I'd also give the counter-argument that one remembers the face of someone with whom they were locked into a battle to the death but at this point, I'll just let this go over to community consensus. King of Uncool 12:46,9/16/2015 

Support Support - This makes even more sense than the Zera or the Brain case. It's literally the same character, with the same personality. I cannot see why they are two different pages, especially since this doesn't apply to other pages anymore.
RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk12:19,9/16/2015


Support Support - Yeah this is different then Zera and Brain and illusion appearances, Hisui said it best NcduruRavens wallpaper (2)12:47,9/16/2015

Oppose Oppose - Same reasons that I opposed having Zera as one article. They aren't the same. Period. :P Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben15:23,9/16/2015

Support Support - For consistency and the same reasons for Zera and Brain.--Sky-Dragoon-Twilight (talk) 16:24, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Super Oppose - Please do not make me break out a long explanation of quantum physics. I dont give a fuck about consistency. Brain and Zera should have been separated, this needs to stay separate too. The Zirconis spirit never passed through the gate. He lived his entire life in his timeline. Future Rogue then changed the timeline by going back and bringing the dragons from the past. This created a split in the timeline. For those that want to see the effects of this, go read up on the many worlds theory, it basically boils down to the spirit being the equivalent of an Edolas counterpart. So unless you guys want to merge all the Edolas characters into their Earthland counterparts article, then this should not be done. Misk's only evidence they are the same is that he retained the name of the Jade Dragon. However, with time travel comes paradoxes and things can remain the same but occur due to different circumstances. The fact is the spirit had no recollection of the events of the attack after the GMG. Atlas Flame however had a perfect recollection of events. They are not the same.-- God · Pray · 18:28,9/16/2015 

Oppose Oppose - I've thought about it from everyone's perspective; sort of gave it a fresh look if you will. Look, if we merge the pages, then the page jumps around. We have a Zirconis who already died appearing first, and then being written off as departing to the afterlife forevermore. Then, later on, we have a Zirconis appearing who is alive. Carla said they are not the same Zirconis. There is also the Atlas Flame issue, where Atlas remembered everything. If this already happened once before, then Zirconis of the past would've remembered them. Meredy asked in the series why everything was still destroyed and why they remembered everything that happened involving the time travel. Jellal explicitly stated that the timestream was damaged beyond repair. When that Zirconis came through the gate, it created an alternate version of him. The Zirconis that died 400 years ago originally no longer exists. The Zirconis that passed through the gate is an entirely different Zirconis with different memories than the first.

Fundamentally, yes, they are the same Zirconis. They share the same name and personality, and even similar life experiences up to a certain point. But when their life experiences start to differ you have two different people. This merge would make no sense. How do we write this? Zirconis died, then passed on to the afterlife, and then he showed up again out of the Eclipse Gate? The fact is that we have no clue what happened to the Zirconis that passed through the gate. Could he have been killed again by Acnologia? Entirely possible, but we weren't told.

This whole merge is going to be messy, and it's full of holes. It's not consistency at all. Zera's page staying the same is at least tolerable because the illusion is like a continuation of the original's life. Zero in the Tartaros arc was a fecking illusion crafted by Midnight for one chapter (it's not like he took on a consciousness of his own, like Zera...), so why we're even bringing him up, or her, is beyond me, truly. Again, it's not consistency. Those are fake version of existing people. These are two characters with now different life experiences. They experienced different things, therefore they are, as I keep repeating myself, two different people. That is how timeline splits work; it's called the multiverse theory. Something different happened, and the FT timeline changed to accommodate for that. Whatever Zirconis they met underground ceased to exist once the Zirconis from 400 years ago passed through time. Some of you people are putting thought behind your supports and that's good. At least you're trying to wrap your heads around it like a normal person. You other people are just blindly supporting without giving a real care under the guise of consistency without actually understanding what consistency is, without thinking about how the page will look, and without understanding what character in-series have said about the timeline changing, or even how timeline changes work. It's not hard to grasp that they're two different characters because of the Eclipse Gate.

It's just like Prime said, "The Spirit from the graveyard and the living dragon are two different characters who just have the same name and appearance. Their roles in the story are different and merging the two pages just because it makes things 'less complicated' at the cost of making them wrong." Listen to him. He's right.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 03:01, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Lol, I just noticed my English fail in there, but thanks Wrath. King of Uncool 07:37,9/17/2015 
Anytime, man. ;o
WrathRogue ChibiZero 18:48, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, Carla didn't say that they are different. Wendy asked the living Zirconis why he didn't remember talking to her, to which Carla said that they had talked to the dead spirit. Zirconis comes forward 400 years, then is sent back. Obviously the living Zirconis doesn't remember talking to Wendy as it actually happened in his future. That's all there is to it. Unless you guys are referring to a different situation, in which case please correct me.
Just the fact that the Spirit Zirconis does not remember talking to Wendy and the others is not enough evidence for there to be two Zirconis, imo. He remembers Jade Dragon, after all. Just like saying that he might be suffering from amnesia such that the only thing he remembers from the Eclipse incident is the title is speculation, it is speculation to say that he might have obtained the title in some other way. For me, this is just his personality. Jade Dragon made an impact on him, so he remembers it. Wendy and the others didn't, so he doesn't give a fig. As Misk stated, 400 years is a long time.
Quantum physics? Multiverse theory? Applying high-level logic to FT is kinda ridiculous. It depends on the situation where the characters from different timelines are different or the same. Hmmm, I'll try to compare this to two other anime. Please keep in mind that I'm only using the situations to illustrate a point, not saying that what their wikis do is correct. Tbh, I don't even know what their wikis do.
  • In Future Diary, it is made clear that all the timelines are different worlds. Yuno from the second world is different from the first world Yuno. There is no confusion there.
  • In Steins;Gate, it is made clear that the characters are the same, no matter which timeline they are from. Kyouma might come in contact with the Kyouma from the past, but they are both the same character. Their history might change, personalities might change, even gender might change, but they are the same person. Not two different people. Mayuri dies countless times, but she is finally saved. Not one Mayuri from the Steins;Gate timeline. Mayuri is saved and the other incidents just become potentialities.
In FT, I find the situation to be much more similar to the one from Steins;Gate. If the timelines are like in Future Diary, then just destroying the Eclipse Gate would not mean a thing. Destroying the Eclipse Gate meant that Rogue had no way of returning to the past, which is why he disappeared. This would be impossible if Rogue and F. Rogue are different people. Of course, I'm not saying that F. Rogue and Rogue be merged as that would be a bit ... messy. But it doesn't change the fact that I consider them to be the same character. In Zirconis' case, there is no need to split as there is mess like in Rogue and F. Rogue's case. Leave aside the fact that Spirit Zirconis' memories being different from the Eclipse one due to the spirit not showing any recognition towards Wendy is speculation. For me, it doesn't even matter that the memories might be different. They are still the same character.
How do we write how a character appears after it has died? Ummm, we have time-travel. There is no problem there, unlike Zera, whom we have as a user of Fire Magic despite the fact that she cannot use it. What happened to the Zirconis after he disappeared? He got killed by Acnologia. There's nothing to indicate otherwise. And we were not told only if you consider Spirit Zirconis to be different from Eclipse Zirconis. Otherwise, it has been stated by Zirconis himself. You're assuming that the result is correct to prove one of the points of the actual proof. ._./
"Zera took on a consciousness of her own." And I disagree. It's a common trope for the imaginary friend to act like a real person and then tell its creator to let the imagination fade away. I don't see anything here to say that Zera had sentience. "Zera is like a continuation of the original's life." Again, I disagree. The illusion is not the real Zera. It is not a continuation of the original's life. She acted as Mavis thought the real Zera would. If Mavis thought Zera would have been a psychotic xenophobe, we would have got comical scenes of Mavis stopping Zera from trying to kill Yury in the night. "The child Zera and Mavis' illusion are two different characters who just have the same name (not even appearance as we have no idea what the adolescent Zera looks like). Their roles in the story are different and merging the two pages just because it makes things 'less complicated' at the cost of making them wrong." That's what I'd say. But that doesn't change the fact that the page has not been split. And I actually don't even consider the Future characters to be different from the main ones. Due to all of this, if Zera's page has not been split, I definitely find it consistent to merge Spirit Zirconis and Eclipse Zirconis. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 10:28, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to just completely point out that I disagree with a majority of what you said. Just because we fuck up one page doesn't mean we have to fuck up a whole bunch of others under the guise of "consistency". Honestly, you aren't even supporting because you truly believe that this is the right direction for the page. You are just supporting because you are looking at this as black and white instead of case-by-case, which is how this should be viewed. If this is seriously going to happen, then just fucking bring up Rogue and Lucy, and Levy, and any other character with a counterpart because they have the same name. Seriously, if this is the direction we're heading in then good fucking luck. Let's just be totally black and white consistent here. Let's not approach things as they are and create exceptions. That would be completely ludicrous, wouldn't it? Honestly, I care about how anons and other viewers view the wiki very much, which is why I monitor imgright alignments, and make sure images aren't stuffed on pages. However, we shouldn't sacrifice what is correct because it makes things "easier" or "consistent" or whichever way we seem to be phrasing things. What is right is not always what is easy, and vice versa. Let's honestly start thinking with our heads instead of using a mob mentality.
Also, we aren't talking about the Zirconis from the Eclipse Gate not recognizing Wendy. We're talking about the dead Zirconis not recognizing Wendy when she summoned him. If the Zirconises were indeed the same Zirconis, then the past Zirconis would've said "Oh, you're that little Dragon Slayer from when... nevermind." Or something. Not just recognize her as smelling like Grandeeney. Zirconis very blatantly remembered the Dragon Slayer battle from his timeline, and it only stands to reason that if Atlas Flame, with memory impairment, can remember Natsu, then Zirconis should've been able to remember Wendy with absolutely none whatsoever. But that didn't happen because the timeline changed. For fuck's sake, Mashima even drew the timeline split, pretty much confirming that there's a multiverse, or "alternate timelines", or however you want to word it. The worlds are no longer connected. They exist as completely separate universes now, and in an effort to address your comment of Rogue disappearing to his own timeline, it was because at that time, there was still the possibility of Future Rogue coming to be, not anything to do with the Rogue's being the same Rogue or whatever. As we witnessed in the Avatar arc, that future ceased to exist for our heroes in the current FT-verse. There has also been talk of irreparable damage to the timestream from several characters. Whatever happened in the past is now different because of Rogue, and the future is different because of him too. It was a giant butterfly effect.
And lastly, assuming that Zirconis doesn't remember Wendy and co. because this is his "personality" or because 400 years passed is major speculation. I don't care what anoyone says about this, this is the case. Again, Atlas Flame remembered Natsu with severe memory damage after being dead for roughly the same amount of time as Zirconis. The Zirconis that died ceased to exist once his past self came into the future. This rewrote what happened. Those Zirconises have different experiences in their lives, and that ultimately is what makes them different people. If two different versions of me existed at the same time, but they both did different things in different locations, does that make them the same person, ultimately? No it doesn't. Because we share the same name and a similar personality doesn't mean squat. We have different experiences and draw on different scenarios and that shapes us into different people. Same concept applies here..
WrathRogue ChibiZero 18:48, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, I stated quite clearly that I think that both Zirconises are the same character. Just like I stated that I think that F. Rogue and Rogue are the same character. The difference here is that merging the Rogue pages would be messy, while there is no such problem with Zirconis. So I dunno why you think I'm supporting this change only because of black-and-white consistency. I obviously think that we should consider F. Rogue as exceptions. But I don't see the need with Zirconis.
Yup, saying that it is according to Zirconis' personality is speculation. Which is why I said that it is my opinion. On the other hand, as I mentioned before, I don't think this point matters at all. Atlas Flame remembered Natsu because Natsu made an impact on him, etc. I see no reason for Zirconis to remember Wendy. Why should he? As Misk keeps mentioning, he only thought of her as food. He took part in the Dragon Civil War and survived until the Dragon King Festival, so he obviously met many Dragon Slayers. Why should he remember them all? They're food, unlike Grandeeney and Igneel and the lot, who seem to be important even amongst Dragons. I don't think it is enough evidence for us to conclude that they have different histories.
But main point is that, even if Spirit Zirconis and Eclipse Zirconis have different histories, I would still consider them to be the same character. No, F. Rogue does not come from a completely different world. He is a potential future of the current Rogue. The reason he disappears is that there exists no Eclipse Gate in the future for the current Rogue to use. The simple fact that Rogue's death would result in F. Rogue's erasure proves that they are the same person. It doesn't matter that they have different histories, they are still the same person. We split the page because it is messy, and I fully support that. On the other hand, there is nothing messy here. So why split? And Jellal's pic only shows the potential timelines, not different worlds. We obviously interpret the pic differently.
Despite my obvious support for merging, I would normally stay neutral because splitting it does not cause any problems and it stays much more consistent with the Future Character pages. But looking at the Zera split, it seems that a split is only necessary if there are blatant contradictions in synopsis, etc. This obviously means that I'd support the merge. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 09:50, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

<Neutral Neutral - I have a good understanding of quantum physics and alternate timelines/dimensions, reading from both views I'm setting of as neutral for the remains of this discussions.Virgo in ECS arc (no background)Animaltamer7Virgo Key10:22, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Support Support -I'm going to support the merge now. Libra in ECS arc (no bg)Animaltamer7Libra key13:22, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
Oppose Oppose - Changed my mind, seeing if that this condensing would go wrong, with the entire Eclipse Gate time-paradox would just make this very confusing on the article. Libra ClearAnimaltamer7Libra key03:09, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose 'Violently Oppose' - We already discussed about Zera and Brain. I'm sorry Misk, but the Two Pages has to stay separate. I'm starting to agree with God, Wrath, Jaku, and Ultra, I'm opposing the merge.
PKNessIcon(SSBB)THUNDER!12:50,9/17/2015

Exactly, and the result of those discussions was to keep them together. Logically, Zirconis should follow for consistency sake. Miskos3 Message 13:00, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
Something that is blatantly wrong shouldn't be supported just because its consistent.-- God · Pray · 18:44,9/17/2015 
Well I disagree with it being "wrong", otherwise we wouldn't be here in this discussion going back and forth Miskos3 Message 18:59, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
From what I can see. Most of the community is only voting support for consistency rather than because they believe it is correct. If this was the first merge discussion I think this discussion would look a lot different-- God · Pray · 19:06,9/17/2015 

Oppose Oppose - I would normally support for consistency's sake, but since I supported the split for the other pages, I'll stay by my opinions and oppose this merge. Onfire.gif Wonder Talk 13:34,9/17/2015

Oppose Oppose - I have changed my mind. ( ._.) Actually, I still do believe that the two Zirconis are the same and in general, they could have one page, however, thinking about how I'd merge the pages and given that Spirit Zirconis comes first, the situation on his page (Synopsis) would be opposite to that of Zera (so not alive > spirit, but spirit > alive) and that would look kinda... silly. In other words, to avoid confusion like with FLucy and FRogue, I guess it'd be better to keep them separated, after all. I guess I look quite stupid right now, given that I have initiated this whole thing, but w/e, no reason to be stubborn especially if it may not be for the good of the wiki. #cornyline Miskos3 Message 16:32, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

This is mostly why I oppose, too (condensed ver. XD). If spirit Zirconis came after then I'd see no reason to keep them separate at all. The Eclipse stuff is just so weird that we should keep it all separate from other characters.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 16:34, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Oppose - Zirconis' spirit and Zirconis are two different characters. RifatHappy Chibi imgTalk18:38,9/18/2015 

The dragons were always meant to come from the past!

I want to talk about the fact that the dragons coming through the gate because of rogue was supposed to happen. It was set in stone, as he said Lucy would close the gate. My only evidence for this is the fact that when Wendy used the Milky Way spell to speak to zirconis he introduces himself as the "Jade Dragon". However later in the story when he comes through the eclipse gate he simply says that he is Zirconis. We find out that he only started going by "Jade Dragon" after he speaks with Princess Hisui and gets sent back to the past. Princess Hisui gave Zirconis the name of Jade Dragon. So it makes since to reason that the eclipse gate was always set in stone to be opened on July 7th, 791. Otherwise Zirconis would not be called the Jade Dragon before the gate was opened.

2605:A000:3148:5D00:E817:5A2D:912E:648B 19:11, July 21, 2017 (UTC) Greed 2605:A000:3148:5D00:E817:5A2D:912E:648B 19:11, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

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