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This is the talk page for the article "Lightning Magic".
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Ability[]
The summary is seemingly just Laxus' ability section summary, it just needs to say basic stuff on lightning magic.Zicoihno 01:16, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Casting[]
Can Cana cast Lightning Spells? Presuming that she uses Card Magic must her spells should fall under the said magic.—This unsigned comment was made by 112.205.55.243 (talk • contribs) .
Cana has not been shown using Lighting Magic. Lightning Magic is a Caster-type Magic while Card Magic is a Holder-type Magic and this is what Cana uses. Her card spells may invoke lightning but this is not Lightning Magic. Ultraprime2Let's talk 15:43, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Wait. Stranger things have happened. We're gonna settle this. I've got a lot of odd thoughts going on. Ultraprime2Let's talk 16:12, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah. Needs a talk. Ultraprime2Let's talk 20:25, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Type of Magic[]
This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is: |
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Elemental spells do not mean Elemental Magic |
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As you can see above, the wondering began as to whether or not Cana could cast Lightning Spells. She's currently listed as a user of this Magic on the page but not on her own page. As we know, she's only used lightning-based spells in the anime. However, that's entirely due to her using Card Magic to do so.
A similar situation exists with Erza, who only used lightning through her Lightning Empress Armor. This is Holder Magic through which she used it and is also listed as a user of this Magic.
Basically, I think we need to decide on what kind of Magic this is and who we, as a result, will list as its users. The description of the Magic states it's Caster-type while the template lists it as both Caster-type and Holder-type. I can't recall any other Magic being listed as both types. As far as I remember, they're either one or the other.
Depending on what we conclude it to be, the page may or may not need reorganization and removals. Other Magic pages may need a look as well depending on how this goes.
Just had a talk in chat about this so I feel now is the time to give opinions. Ultraprime2Let's talk 20:25, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Just in case the above isn't clear: Do we name this as solely Caster-type or Caster as well as Holder? We have both types of spells listed on the page.
I now recall Sleep Magic is both. Should this be as well?
Actually, Ultra, despite my level of assurance of what I said on chat, I feel like it's a touchy subject. However, spells like Water Slash and Flame Slash, which are products of Sword Magic, are also classified as both Water and Fire Magic respectively, so perhaps it is the same predicament with Cana's spells?
I'm pleased you opened a discussion about this. It had me conflicting for a bit and luckily, the community can just discuss and vote, if need be.
.:Umy:. 20:42, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Agh! So conflicting! I went on Erza's profile and it independently lists each magic under her Magic, with the name of the armor that it is used with. I'm not sure what we can do about Cana... .:Umy:. 20:44, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was talking to Chaos about it and it was decided this was an odd issue and needs a talk. Your examples are both good and furthermore, Fire Magic is stated to be a Caster-type Magic but Flame Slash, listed there as a Fire Magic Spell, is only useable through the F.Empress Armor, which is Holder Magic. So you can see why I think this needs to be settled. My internet also keeps dying on me >_>
Ultraprime2Let's talk 20:47, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
I do believe that Cana can utilize Lightning Magic and it can be employed by both Caster and Holder type of Magic. The same goes with Sleep Magic which was brought up by Ultra which uses both types of magic, wherein with the use of staves, rings and cards the user can perform sleep magic as well as caster type Mirajane who can use Dream Knock. KOKOROCHAS 21:02, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, this is how I see it. Flame Slash, Water Slash and Lightning Empress Armor's lightning spells are categorized as their element's Magic (ex. Fire Magic, Water Magic and Lightning Magic) because they are used with magical swords that produce the elements and Erza can use them when she wants and how she wants. However, Cana's Magic allows her to use the cards, but she has no control over what effects her Cards make. In other words, Cana can "release" the effect of a card, but that's it, she has no Magic over the lightning, fire or anything she makes. So Cana's spells shouldn't be listed in my opinion. RelikzTalk 21:04, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
If that is the case then there should also be a discussion over Bora's sleep Magic since he can only "release" it with the use of a ring. Furthermore, regarding Cana's control over lightning, it was shown during Cana and Lucy's fight against Freed and Bickslow that she waited for the right moment until Freed is in the right position before she can electrocute Freed using her cards. Kindly check the second version of Summoned Lightning.
KOKOROCHAS 21:21, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Yup. Bora can use Charm, not Sleep Magic. Cana released the effect of the cards around Freed, she didn't manipulate the lightning... RelikzTalk 21:27, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah I agree with Leli. Cana casts it but doesn't manipulate it, whereas Erza's various armors also describe the element that it manipulates. The big issue with this is that alot of changes will occur now... Dual-classing Lightning Magic would mean we would have to dual-class Ice Magic, Fire Magic, Wind Magic etc., but this option is best imo since we don't have to change as much. (trust me, I thought about the possibilities of what would happen depending on the outcome of this discussion lol) .:Umy:. 01:57, January 5, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Rauleli too, I think Cana can't cast Lightning Magic. However, some king of magics (Just like Sleep Magic) should be classified as Caster-Holder Type. MiraMajinTalk! 02:00,1/11/2013
- I don't see problems with Dual Type Magics. It just means that it can be performed with both Caster and Holder properties.
- I don't think we should remove Cana's spells from here. What we should remove is her name from the list of users, since she can't freely use them. It would be basically, in my opinion "Cana -> Uses Card Magic -> Card Effect is activated -> Card releases a Lightning Magic spell". Not like she uses the Lightning Spell.
Herme 00:59,1/13/2013
Wait. We are really discussing of Magics can be Holder and Caster? Of course. The best example is Pisces. The same spirit uses Water Magic both ways. So yeah.
@Herme. I don't think that's it. That would mean that Mr. Cursey can use Iron Magic, and Mist Magic and we would have to start making up Magics just to satisfy. RelikzTalk 04:19, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm... I partially agree with you. I disagree with saying that Items can use Magic, that doesn't make sense. But I agree that we'd have to make up Magics if they can release elemental spells... *sigh* Then the idea of remove Cana's spells from here makes sense. Herme 16:57,1/14/2013
Ok this discussion has been opened long enough and since most people agree with the removal of Cana's Card Magic spells from this page, I'll do so. RelikzTalk 03:55, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
Orga and Laxus: Lightning Magic?[]
This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is: |
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No changes will be made. |
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Okay, I'll try to make this as understandable as possible... For some time, I've been wondering about Laxus and Orga's spells and the way they are categorized.
Basically, all Laxus' spells that do not have Lightning Dragon's... in their name have been put under Lightning Magic, while all Orga's spell are under his Lightning God Slayer Magic, even those that haven't been explicitly stated in their names to belong there, and that being Black Lightning Sphere] and 120mm Black Lightning Cannon. In that sense, aren't we speculating a little? All the other Dragon Slayer/God Slayers are clearly named after their Magic, only those two aren't. For the consistency sake, I believe this should be fixed. There are multiple options: *copies Carry*
1. Move those two spells to the Lightning Magic as they haven't been stated to be Lightning God Slayer spells, similarly to Laxus' pre-Dragon Slayer spells.
2. In case you consider the black color of Orga's spells as a definite proof of them being the Lightning God Slayer Magic spells, (although in my opinion it's not, the black color could be just a side-effect of him being the God Slayer... ) then the same way all Laxus' Lightning spells should be considered Lightning Dragon Slayer magic spells (as he is a Lightning Dragon Slayer) and moved to its Magic page.
3. Do nothing and keep it inconsistent ( ._.)
What does everyone think? Miskos3 Message 15:19, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- During the fighting festival arc Laxus said that he'd stop hiding his Lightning Dragon Slayer abilities, so it would stand to reason that the spells he cast before saying that are "only" regular lightning magic.
- And judging from what we've seen with the fire magic, it would seem that different colors of the same element have different effects, so it would be reasonable that all the black lightning is all part of the God Slayer magic rather than regular lightning magic.
- So for now I'd support leaving it as it is (though I can't quite figure out how to do the support tag with a number in it).
- NoNickNeeded (talk) 16:06, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Black lightning means that it's God Slayer Magic. "the black color could be just a side-effect of him being the God Slayer" it could be, but it's speculation.
- Laxus' spells are considered Lightning Magic because his guild card says that he uses lightning Magic and, like NoNick said, Laxus said that he was going to stop hiding his Lightning DS Magic and so his body got scales and shit (which means that's when he started using his DS Magic) meaning that the lightning before the transformation was lightning Magic. Of course, this has been shown to be inconsistent as Laxus has been seeing using Lightning DS Magic later on yet he has never again been shown with the scales.
- To sum it up: No because Orga has black lightning and because of Laxus' guild card.
RelikzTalk 16:44, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- However, claiming otherwise is also a speculation, in my opinion. Black lightning shouldn't necessarily mean it's automatically God Slayer magic. I'm especially concerned about 120mm Black Lightning Cannon's relation to Lightning God's Charged Particle Cannon. First one doesn't have "Lightning God's ..." in its name while the second one has and in reality, the latter is just a stronger version of the former. In other words, Lightning God's Charged Particle Cannon is a God Slayer version of Lightning Magic's 120mm Black Lightning Cannon. That's the way I see it.
- Honestly, this whole issue is full of speculations so all we can do is to vote and pick an option that makes the most sense regarding what we know about their Magic.
- Oh and I apologize, I completely forgot about Laxus' guild card :/ Miskos3 Message 17:00, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Roaring Thunder doesn't have the "Lightning's Dragon" thing either, but it's categorized as DS magic. From Wendy, you can take Shattering Light: Sky Drill and Milky Way as examples. It doesn't seems to be mandatory. Martios (talk) 17:11, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- True, true. then I guess we go back to what seems most plausible, and in my opinion it's most likely that black lightning = GS Magic than normal lightning magic RelikzTalk 17:18, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Take Troia, Raise, Re-Raise, Arms X Armor X Vernier, Holy Ray, White Drive and Shadow Drive then. Martios (talk) 17:45, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
Hasn't it more or less been established that God Slayer Magic is primarily black in color? There hasn't been a spell showing otherwise. I think it's safe to say all of Orga's shown spells fall under God Slayer Magic. Ultraprime2Let's talk 17:22, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but unlike all the other God Slayer spells, Orga's two spells are simply called "Black Lightning". If it's proven thanks to Laxus' guild card that all his spells that do not include "Lightning Dragon Slayer's..." in its name are simply "Lightning Magic", then I believe the same can go for Orga's Black Lightning spells. Categorizing them as "Lightning God Slayer Magic" when their names don't prove it is a speculation, in my opinion. All the Dragon/God Slayer spells have it clearly stated in their names that they are Dragon/God Slayer spells. Orga's first two spells don't. Miskos3 Message 17:39, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- I think the fact that they're called as such is enough. Flame God's Explosive Flame is referred to as "black flames" in the manga but it's confirmed as Flame God Slayer Magic by Zancrow, even though the attack is unnamed. Orga's spells in question were used before he revealed himself as a God Slayer but we don't know whether he has any other style of Magic and thus categorizing the first 2 spells as Lightning Magic is speculation itself. Ultraprime2Let's talk 17:43, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- The skill (at least the second one, since Sphere one is unnamed) is called 120mm Black Lightning Cannon so categorizing it as a Lightning Magic is less of a speculation than making it a Lightning God Slayer spell, in my opinion. Though as I said above, both options are more or less speculations so it's about choosing the more reasonable one. I've given my arguments so all that's left is deciding via democracy. Lol. Miskos3 Message 17:52, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- It's still Black Lightning Cannon and Black = God Slayer as it's been in the established cases of the God Slayer characters. No Lightning Magic spell, besides the God Slayer varieties, has been black so far. Same goes for any Fire Magic spells or Sky Magic spells. When God Slayers used those elements, they were always black in color. If we call the 2nd spell a Lightning Magic spell rather than a Lightning God Slayer Magic spell only because it doesn't have something about "God Slayer" in the title, then the same argument can be made for the 1st one with support for it existing on both sides.
So, yeah, this could go on. Do we vote at this point?
Ultraprime2Let's talk 18:13, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- It's still Black Lightning Cannon and Black = God Slayer as it's been in the established cases of the God Slayer characters. No Lightning Magic spell, besides the God Slayer varieties, has been black so far. Same goes for any Fire Magic spells or Sky Magic spells. When God Slayers used those elements, they were always black in color. If we call the 2nd spell a Lightning Magic spell rather than a Lightning God Slayer Magic spell only because it doesn't have something about "God Slayer" in the title, then the same argument can be made for the 1st one with support for it existing on both sides.
#3
Mega ♦ Talk 17:33, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Reli on this one. Black means God Slayer Magic. To assume otherwise would not only be ridiculous, in my opinion, but it would also be unnecessarily complicating things that, in all honesty, are pretty simple. In the series and on this site, some things are just understood to be "understood truths." If we waited until the manga confirmed every single minute detail, we wouldn't be able to put any information on our articles. If Mirajane uses a spell that utilizes water we assume it's Water Magic and we list it as such. Mirajane may never directly say "this is Water Magic," but we'll still list it as Water Magic because it would be silly to assume a Water Spell is not Water Magic. In the same way, it's sort of silly to assume a black lightning spell used by a God Slayer is not a Lightning God Slayer Magic spell. Especially considering that no other form of Magic in the series uses Black elements. Also, either way we go, we would be speculating. If we put those two spells under Lightning Magic then we would be saying that those spells are Lightning Magic spells, which is speculation. And if we leave it as it is now we would also be speculating, but speculating to a substantially less degree. So, number three is the only logical way to go. ✦Rai✦ ✦Talk✦ 19:42,4/27/2013
- And that's exactly the reason why I don't understand why we can't say that Mato = Toma, if the "understood truths" were given although no clear statement was made. But that's a discussion to be done on another page. The boundary between speculations and assumptions can be really vague sometimes xD. Martios (talk) 20:57, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
- ^Exactly what I based my judgement about speculations on D: I was told we couldn't merge the articles until it's outright said that they're the same person. Anyway, put this way, it makes sense to leave them as Lightning God Slayer spells. I guess I thought too much about this aha Miskos3 Message 07:52, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
- You guys from this wikia are too confuse. ._. Sometimes you say: Of course we can't do it, it would be speculation! Sometimes you say: Well, it's an understood truth! - Seriously? There are A LOT of things that me and a lot of other member would consider "understood truth", but you guys keep saying it's speculation (Like Mato=Toma or put Gray's spells under Ice Magic only because it doesn't have the "Ice-Make" prefix). Here's a tip: Decide! MiraMajinTalk! 00:49,4/29/2013
#3 - Everybody has already said what I think. ( ._____.)
WrathZero20:20,4/27/2013
Support #3 -bandwagon Animaltamer7
#3 - Same reasons as others above..
RifatmfaridTalk 02:26, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
turn into there element[]
The last paragraph of description reads "Similar to other types of Elemental Magic, Lightning Magic can allow the user to transform their body into the element they control" I fear this is a huge speculation, aside from Juvia (who may be a unique case) what other users of elemental magic have shown to transform into there element? Surly then for a fire user it would be much simpler to turn into fire and allow an incoming attack to pass harmlessly through you such as Juvia, but time and again we have seen elemental mages dodging attacks. During the magic games an attack of Gajeel aimed at Rouge proved to be useless, but without confirmation can we truly say that Rouge transformed into a shadow as opposed to perhaps he "jumped into he's shadow" before being struck, as was shown with Kageyama. From what I have persevered Natsu does not appear to be transforming into fire more so engulfing he's limbs in it before a strike, and even Gajeel canonically only coats himself in iron (chapter 397 page 9). Who is to say Luxas is not "riding the lightning" instead of tranforming into it. If our goal here is to accurately provide true or reliable information about the manga/anime, we can not speculate, and of course I understand allowing fans to contribute does run the risk of untrue information being posted, but some of the things I see on this wikia seem dangerously close to fans writing what they would "LIKE" to see in there favourite magic/characters as opposed to what is yet to be confirmed.
Also while I am here, if there is still a discussion about lighting magic being caster or holder (i believe that discussion is closed but just in case), ever since the manga introduced to us the lacrima and the tools of Edolas, a whole new dimension of holder type magic becomes imaginable. Now we should refrain from jumping to conclusion until the manga confirms it but, lacrima are able to store magic, and not only was luxas able to acquire/fill enough lightning lacrima for the thunder palace, laxus and cobra have there element from lacrima embedded in there body. The type of magic storable in a lacrima is yet to be confirmed (Warren, the telepath, invented miniature communication lacrima, so it appears lacrima are not limited to elemtal magic), but it seems apparent (to atleast me anyways) that filling a lacarima with an elemental type magic and storing that in a sword or other type of item for later use is simple enough. Like Natsu was able to use a sword with fire lacrima in it while in Edolas, who is to say Erza might not add to her arsenal a weapon with say, a water lacrima in it? She would still be a requip focused mage but yes, she would indeed be able to use water through holder magic.
--58.106.140.74 06:28, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
We have seen Laxus turn into a lightning bolt before. And he doesn't "ride" the lightning, he coats himself in it and uses it to propel himself forward in most other instances. We have seen Rogue turn into shadows. Check his first battle with Gajeel, when he used Shadow Drive to increase his magic's power and became a true shadow, though you are also right in saying that Rogue can also enter someone else's shadow. Funnily enough, Gajeel also exhibited the ability to turn into shadows (not just enter his own or someone else's), during his fight with Rogue. You used Juvia as an example, so we can skip right by her; Mystogan displayed the ability to turn his body into air (or mist, as it were, apparently). Future Rogue also exhibited the ability to turn into complete shadows, and he showcased the ability to turn into a beam of light, which he did to inflict damage on Natsu. These are all elements. If we didn't go by what we saw and only what Mashima has outright stated to be true, then we'd be sitting here all day with a half-filled wiki and time wasted, because I'm guessing he doesn't have time to explain every little thing and assumes that we're all intelligent enough to get the gist of what each kind of magic does. Some stuff just has to outright be interpreted, and if some stuff looks touchy, then it's because it is touchy.
Refer to the last sentence of the above paragraph and you have your answer for the second issue. A lacrima is a magic item, and if a magic item allows you to use certain kinds of magic from that item, barring certain examples, like Dragon Lacrima being implanted into your body, which gives you the ability to not produce magic from that lacrima, but your body, then that magic is also holder magic. Fire Magic is holder magic; as is lightning, air, plant, etc. If the manga shows two different ways of casting a magic, then it is also both kinds of magic and should be listed as such, honestly. Pretty inconsistent of us to not.
WrathZero 10:46, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
OH HEY a reply, I though you guys would be way too busy, I would like to start off with thanking you for taking the time to answer this question :)
I had forgotten about Mystogun transforming into mist, just then I tried to have a look through it and was only able to find perhaps what you are referencing in chapter 120 page 16 or so (depending from where you read), in this image, Mystogun has defiantly used magic to escape, but the effect left behind to me feels more akin to the "smoke" that appears when Erza requips. I'm sure I'v seen Mystogun do this at-least 2 other times ill just need to have a flick through to find it.
With the Gajeel vs Rouge fight, yeah so they both turn into whirling masses of shadow to avoid the attack, my concern was, to me it is not clear if perhaps they ARE turning into shadow, or the are hoping into a shadown but instead of sinking into there own shadow it like rises up to consume them.
But you are right, if we sit on our thumbs until the manga states it 100% there might not be a lot we could fill this wikia with.
thank you again for your time--58.106.140.74 06:01, June 12, 2015 (UTC)
Well, in the case of the two Rogues and Gajeel, it is more like they can turn into actual shadows and enter the shadows of both themselves and other people. Also, you're welcome. =)
WrathZero 09:00, June 12, 2015 (UTC)
More fitting Japanese name?[]
I can see that the Japanese phrase was taken from Laxus's character profile, but 雷系各種魔法 does not translate to "Lightning Magic"; it means "every kind of Lightning-type Magic", which is not a name so much as a statement. Wouldn't 雷魔法 (Kaminari Mahō) or 雷系魔法 (Kaminari-kei Mahō) be more appropriate?
The same applies to the Japanese name of Earth Magic as seen on Jura's profile; I've already made the same topic on that talk page. SubZeroSilver (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC)