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Is it really Dragon Force?

Have we got confirmation that the form Laxus and Cobra take is actually Dragon Force? –  Natsu11  09:39, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

They both get dragon scales when they use Dragon Slayer Magic. But, it'd be great if there was a reference about this. Bickslow DollRelikz Talk 23:45, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Magic, Spell or Ability

This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is:
Ability
Please do not edit this discussion.

We have this page listed as a Magic, in the White Dragon Slayer Magic page and Shadow Dragon Slayer Magic page we have them as spells, but I think Dragon Force is an ability for Dragon Slayers. So, I propose we count Dragon Force as an ability.

Support Support - Ability. RelikzBickslow Doll3Talk 22:13, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Support Support - Ability.   Rai  Talk     23:05,8/25/2012

Support Support - Ability as well talk  Garyness  00:00, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Support Support - Ability. Chibi StingMega Chibi Cobra 00:24, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Support Support - Ability. Herme 00:35,8/26/2012

Um should we point out in the trivia that the 1st generation dragon force is stronger the 2nd and 3rd?

I wonder when will Wendy will activate Dragon Force

I was wondering when will Wendy Marvell will gain and activate her Dragon Force. It would be awesome for her to use her Sky Dragon Slayer Magic at its full potential.

Let me know if you have some opinion about this.

--Warmachine375 (talk) 12:13, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Wendy has not activated this ability. Article talk pages are for discussing issues relevant to articles, not for personal views or asking questions. Such things should be in a forum or blog.
Éclair MovieUltraprime2Let's talkChibi Mystogan 12:40, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Second Generation

This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is:
Second Generation Dragon Slayers will be removed from the list of Dragon Force users until concrete evidence that they actually use Dragon Force is presented.
Please do not edit this discussion.

Whatever Laxus and Cobra used is definitely not Dragon Force. There is no reference to that, and the fact that they get dragon scales is probably because of that dragon lacrima. I personaly think that most 2d gen simply can't use dragon slayer magic unless they have this dragon-like body. Laxus howewer later learned to use it without transformation, but Cobra didn't because he had no poison to eat after Cubelios disappeared, so his magic level didn't changed. I know that this is speculation and don't ask to include it anywhere, but 2d gen dragon force is a speculation too. If you need proof, everyone was surprised by seeing Sting and Rouge use dragon force at will, though 3d gen is supposed to have the powers of both 1st and 2nd gens. Also, dragon force is supposed to be ultimate super-destructive dragon slayer magic, while Laxus and Cobra's was not really very different from non-dragon force 1st gen (Laxus is simpy more powerful than Natsu or Gajeel, that's the only difference). So 2d gen's transformation is likely some side effect of their lacrimas, which disssappears after a certain level is reached, but not a dragon force. That's why we should write someting like "It is unknown if Second Generation can enter Dragon Force". Do you agree? —This unsigned comment was made by 192.162.208.3 (talkcontribs) .

To be honest, I've always found this matter iffy. Like you said, 3rd Generation DS are a combination of 1st and 2nd Generation DS. If 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will yet 3rd Generation DS can, wouldn't you say that it's because 2nd Generation DS can? Mudkip BW Marshtomp RSSwampert BW 19:50, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Not neccesarily imo because it might just mean that they need both 1st DS abilities AND lacrima to enter it whenever they want, it doesn't mean that one of the gens separated has to possess the same ability. I'm gonna have to agree with the anon, if it's not specifically stated to be Dragon Force, we shouldn't speculate about it. Miskos3 Message 21:45, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

This is just me thinking out loud, but Dragon Force gives one the characteristics of an actual Dragon, which includes scales of some sort and sharper canines, both of which Cobra and Laxus attain when they make use of their Dragon Slayer Magic.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 22:29, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's been a little while, but I feel this is an important discussion which wasn't resolved and so I'm commenting here and also leaving it on the Quick News. Reading through everyone's comments, it's clearly a difficult issue but here're my thoughts on it.

For one thing, it's true that the forms Cobra and Laxus took on when activating their Lacrima were never actually called "Dragon Force" but having flipped through Mangareader's versions of Chapter 98 through to Chapter 101, I don't see "Dragon Force" as a term used at all. If it was used, I think the earliest it can be is in the battle against Zero, which came long after the fights against Laxus and Cobra. As such, those two cases not being called "Dragon Force" might be passable. If there's another translation that proves me wrong, let's hear it.

What makes this hard is initially, we thought they could only use Dragon Slayer Magic when this form was activated but Laxus showed no signs of activating it in his more recent battles and yet was still using Dragon Slayer techniques. Similarly, this move of Cobra's is named by us, though we can still call it a Dragon Slayer technique since it was used against a Dragon and is clearly causing damage, even though Cobra did not appear to activate this form against the Rock Dragon.

The idea that the 2nd Gen's transformation is some side effect of their Lacrima which disappears after a certain level is reached, while not necessarily impossible seems highly unlikely to me. While you can make the argument for it to be possible with Laxus due to his training, Cobra was in jail ever since the Nirvana arc and should not have had any such chance to obtain higher levels. For this though, I'm assuming we still count the KotSS arc as non-canon despite its references in the manga.

As such, I think we have two options and implications they would bring up:

  1. : Keep things as they are.
    This means to me that because the 2nd Generation Dragon Slayers have Lacrima in their body, they can use Dragon Force at will, but it is not inherently necessary for using Dragon Slayer techniques. Any differences in power and such will have to be accounted for through differences in character strength and history (i.e. those not trained by a Dragon aren't as capable with the power as those who were). The implication that since the 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will, yet 3rd Generation DS can, it is because the 2nd Generation DS can will remain.
  2. : The 2nd Generations do not use Dragon Force when they activate their Lacrima, but rather, they activate something else entirely. What this would imply, at least to me, is that because the 3rd Generation was trained by Dragons and has Lacrima in them, what they activate via the Lacrima is Dragon Force. The problems I see here are that if we go for this option A) We don't then have a term for what the 2nd Generation DS are actually using when they activate the Lacrima. As we've seen since, it's not an inherent requirement for utilizing Dragon Slayer techniques. B) It would seem kinda odd to have them look as if they're using Dragon Force, filling in essentially all the necessary criteria, but then saying that they're not using it. The argument that it goes away after a certain amount of time, while it could explain that, would be speculation.

From what I can gather on other sites, they seem to accept the current notion that if 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will, yet 3rd Generation DS can, it is because the 2nd Generation DS can. As we all know, we do have an impact on the wider FT community, whether or not we care. Naturally if we change this, we're going to have to really justify it, not because we want to give others what we want, but we are ultimately an encyclopedia and we need to think about how the information here is going to be taken.

As such, I'll leave this around for more people to give their inputs. King of Uncool 11:20,11/30/2013 

Cobra's dragon force

Cobra's Dragon Force in the filler arc

I can see what the issue is here. We know almost nothing about 2nd GEN DS and their Dragon Force Mode. However, at least in the anime, Cobra was confirmed to possess Dragon Force in the filler Key of the Starry Sky arc, so it all comes down to whether we accept the abilities of the characters demonstrated in that arc as canonical or not. Personally, I support no changes being made, because I don't think anyone from the anime team would have the liberty to add an ability that the author himself would be against.
RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk11:48,11/30/2013

To be perfectly fair, there's nothing here that we can say that will be the concrete truth, which isn't necessarily helpful since we're a wiki that sets much store by direct facts and tellings. To a point we have to speculate, and it's truly about which involves less speculation (as well as which involves more common sense). As such, I pick the first option as the most suitable, as it doesn't leave a hole in the knowledge we are presenting to those who simply come by to look around. I was one once, and if something like having all my accepted knowledge about a certain topic be thrown out the window occurred, I'd be majorly confused.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 15:10, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

As Wrath has said, if we include Second Generation Dragon Slayers in the Dragon Force article then we're going to need to allow some speculation. However, if we want to keep things purely factual, then here are the facts. The only people confirmed to attain Dragon Force are Natsu Dragneel, Sting Eucliffe and Rogue Cheney.

The current argument for Second Generation Slayers to be included is that they displayed dragon-like traits - if only at one point. However, they were never confirmed to be capable of Dragon Force, and every instance since their introduction has proven that both Laxus and Cobra can use their magic without assuming dragon-like traits. I don't know about you guys, but I feel that ignoring new information in preference of an older example is usually bad practice. If I had to guess, the patches of scales they showed in their introduction was probably just Mashima's attempt to distinguish their magic as being Dragon Slayer in nature.   Kuro      Ashi   15:46, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

And there's also how everyone was always awed when anyone was confirmed to go into Dragon Force. "Oh that's Dragon Force" "That's the true strength of a Dragon" ect... but with Cobra and Laxus it was just "You are a Dragon Slayer?" rather than "You can go into Dragon Force?". Unfortunately that still doesn't help me decide.
I really want it to not be Dragon Force, but from an objective point of view, I'm undecided.
NoNickNeeded (talk) 15:52, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to speculate and claim that dragon scales and etc. appearance mean Dragon Force, then Gajeel should also be included. Miskos3 Message 16:18, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

When has Gajeel had ever Dragon Scales? Metal Scales ≠ Dragon Scales. King of Uncool 16:23,11/30/2013 
Weren't they in shape of dragon scales? And btw, what do we consider the dual modes? Miskos3 Message 16:41, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the "shape" of a Dragon Scale is per se, but they are a named technique, seemingly activated at will and they're specific to Iron Dragon Slayer Magic because they have metallic properties. And to my recollection, the dual-modes are considered abilities if that's what you meant. King of Uncool 16:45,11/30/2013 
Well they're still scales, if we are going to speculate that scales mean DF, then we may as well do the same in Gajeel's case. If we are going to speculate that unleashing magic like this is DF, we may as well consider dual modes to be DF. And that's why speculating is bad. Miskos3 Message 16:57, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
C'mon dude. We don't consider these scales of Gajeel to be Dragon Force because we know that they're not. They're the metal scales that come from using a particular technique unrelated to Dragon Force and introduced before it. The reason the 2nd Gen scales are speculated to be DF is because they appear to be the same variety of scales that Natsu had while fighting Jellal, in addition to the 3rd Generation DS activating DF by the Lacrima, which should imply that the 2nd Generation DS can as well because they both have Lacrima. Secondly, the Dual Modes are completely different from Dragon Force. There are no scales in those cases nor any Dragon-like features at all. They activate by the use of what has so far been shown as a single element different from what the base element of the Dragon Slayer is. To say that Dual Modes and Dragon Force are the same is not speculation: it's nonsense. King of Uncool 17:06,11/30/2013 
No, we know nothing, actually. We don't consider Gajeel's ability to be Dragon Force because there were no mentions of it, so we should also do the same with 2nd Gen. Miskos3 Message 17:40, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not against removing the second gen from this page, but Gajeel's technique is obviously not Dragon Force. You can tell just by looking at it. It has no external trigger, and the scaling on Gajeel's body is completely different from other examples. Here, it's not a simple matter of the scales, it's a completely different technique and works differently as well. King of Uncool 17:44,11/30/2013 
I was just pointing out that by keeping 2nd gen as DF users we're creating room for unnecessary speculations in other cases as well, regardless of whether those cases have clear outcome or not. Basically, I was using both Gajeel and dual modes as examples of how one may be inclined to speculate. Miskos3 Message 17:57, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Prime, keep in mind that 3rd Gen have both a Lacrima and were taught by actual Dragons. 2nd Gen just have a Lacrima, I think that makes them very different. I don't actually oppose keeping them there, but the guys up there are saying nothing but the truth. Originally I was gonna say to just keep them there, but Misk pointed out the Gajeel thing. I think it would be best to just remove them from there unless someone finds evidence that they were stated to be in Dragon Force. When I was rereading the manga, I saw nothing about them being said to be in Dragon Force, not even the Q&A or afterword (not 100% sure, but I don't recall anything). The reason why I support removing them from there is because this wiki is strict on the speculation policy, and saying "Cuz they have scales and looked like what Natsu looked like during his fight with Jellal" is speculation with an opinion.
OmegaMakarov as SantaNatsu2 17:24, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

I am ashamed of you guys. That's a named spell. Mudkip BW Marshtomp RSSwampert BW 19:59, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

I know, and said it was. King of Uncool 20:01,11/30/2013 
I also knew it... that wasn't the point. Miskos3 Message 20:03, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
then why are we discussing whether something already named is or isn't what is? Mudkip BW Marshtomp RSSwampert BW 20:10, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't matter anymore, I'm just bad with words I guess. Let's focus on the problem at hand Miskos3 Message 20:13, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

I Support Support - removing 2nd gen DS as Dragon Force users. Miskos3 Message 20:13, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

I also Support Support - this.   Kuro      Ashi   20:17, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Oppose - As per episode 149, in which Cobra is confirmed to use it.
RavenMestSting Anime Square<s>(S)</s>talk20:38,11/30/2013

Wait a sec, they never said it was Dragon Force, it was the same thing Cobra did vs. Natsu anyway. Plus it's anime only. Miskos3 Message 21:07, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
I know it's anime only, but it's the only thing we have, and I'd rather go with the anime than contradict it, so... ( ._.)
RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk22:17,11/30/2013
I still don't think it's different than what has been shown against Natsu. If anything, I'd consider it to be the same ability as Gajeel's Iron Scales, except Cobra's are poisonous. Miskos3 Message 22:27, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
I actually rewatched the episode and I think I'm convinced, there's no evidence to say that Cobra used Dragon Force. I'm changing my vote.RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk22:59,11/30/2013

Support Support - the change mentioned above. RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk22:59,11/30/2013

Honestly, as much as I'd wish it to stay, and though we all know it's probably right the way it is, there's really no choice but to Support Support - this change, as we have no concrete knowledge on how Dragon Force truly works, and, yes, like Mega pointed out, saying that because it looks similar to how Natsu looked during the Tower of Heaven is objective and opinionated. We can merely write this off as an aesthetic change on the four pages that this really pertains to and mention that it doesn't happen again.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 23:39, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Support Support - After reading the argument and thinking on it some more I decided to support the change. Apart from what was already mentioned, Dragon Force's appearance isn't even consistant. Natsu showed scale-like patterns both times, but in the Tower of Heaven arc he created flames in the shape of a Dragon when entering, which he didn't do in the Nirvana arc fight against Zero. And for Sting and Rogue it didn't even look like scales at all. NoNickNeeded (talk) 23:58, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

He didn't do in the Nirvana arc? *cough* Yes I am aware you meant only the flames but technically for a person like Zero to see that means something. Imo its part of the Dragon Force's effect.
--Fairy Tail Grand Master<F.T.G.M. >Mavis AvatarAcnologia Avatar 14:19, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Support Support -
OmegaMakarov as SantaNatsu2 18:27, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

Support Support - RifatHappy Chibi imgTalk18:37,12/1/2013 

Support Support - I finally got around to reading all of this, and I have to say I agree that it was never specifically stated that they were using DF. If anything, the change was almost just to say very obviously "Look... These guys are Dragon Slayers!" rather than the actual entering of DF. ☆°・*CarrotSays...*・°☆ 00:42, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Add that Dragon Force can be activated by will for Gen 1 slayers

In Chapter 411, Natsu managed to activate his Dragon Force for a brief momemt again as noted by Mard Geer himself. However in this case Natsu didn't have any outside source cause him to transform, he just transformed similar to how Sting and Rogue can freely use Dragon Force.

So I think we should add onto the 1st Generation Slayers section that they can learn how to use it freely.--Eternal-Era-Twilight (talk) 10:22, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

Add that the Dragons were preventing the free use of the Dragon Force

I heard from somewhere and I'm not sure how true this is, but I heard that the reason that Natsu and Wendy (and Gajeel if he had done this before Metalicana appeared in the Tartarus arc) needed outside stimuli to activate their Dragon Force was due to Igneel and Grandeeney being inside of them.

The reason being Dragon Force is one of the first stages of transforming into a Dragon like Acnologia did, by staying inside they limited the use of the Dragon Force so they could safely keep making the antibodies to keep the Dragon Slayers from turning into Dragons. Natsu was able to use his Dragon Force without any outside stimuli after Igneel exited his body which give some proof to this, but since I'm not completely sure on it like how we don't have any proof the 2nd Gen Slayers can use Dragon Force, I don't wanna edit the page without people agreeing this is something we can add.--Sky-Dragoon-Twilight (talk) 18:15, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

Thats a theory, its not fact. Until its fact it doesn't get added-- God · Pray · 18:18,1/11/2015 

WAIT A SECOND.HOLD YOUR DAM HORSES. WHAT ABOUT GAJEEL?!?! WHEN HE TURNS ALL IRON SCALED AND STUFF DURING THE PHANTOM LORD ARC (Am I correct about that?? it's been so long :3) DOES THAT QUALIFY AS DRAGON FORCE?? BECAUSE HE IS FIRST GENERATION. SO AM I CORRECT OR JUST CRAZY?!?!? (98.176.213.118 04:39, July 30, 2015 (UTC))

That's not Dragon Force, that's his Iron Dragon's Scales technique--Sky-Dragoon-Twilight (talk) 06:18, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Dragon Mode

then the dragon force can also be considered a "dragon mode", like the fire dragon king? just a question DisneySeggewys (talk) 23:32, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

Wendy's Dragon Force

Hey, I just noticed that her eternano-induced form and her natural form that's been recently posted are pretty much the same in appearance, but that just me. You think it's okay to post it now instead of waiting for the anime image to come out? Super Kami Guru (Swiggity swass, I'm gonna violate 'dat ass!) 16:02, March 9, 2016 (UTC)

Gajeel's Dragon Force

Are you we even sure it's Dragon Force and not some different power up? I would think that it would have been stated if it was Dragon Force.

Maybe that's just my logic though. LumintheLord of Light~ 00:19,5/31/2016

NATSU NATURAL ACTIVATION

I AM TRYING AS HARD AS I CAN BUT I CANNOT FIND WHERE NATSU NATURALLY ACTIVATED DRAGON FORCE IN THE MANGA ... LIKE I FEEL LIKE IT IS IN THE TARTAROS ARC BUT I CANT FIND IT --Stellar Forger (talk) 01:27, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Chapter 411, Pages 8-17 according to the refs in Natsu's article.
NoNickNeeded (talk) 07:07, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Well that is interesting ... i thought that mard geer confused that amount of power for dragon force and teh scales was a "side efect" of that specific move kinda like when gray uses the demon slayer techniques, or when natsu enters lightning fire dragon mode --Stellar Forger (talk) 20:15, June 13, 2016 (UTC)

Disreguard my last statement for some bizzare reason i thought that natsu developed scales during lighting flame dragon mode ... --Stellar Forger (talk) 00:25, June 20, 2016 (UTC)

Whoever removed gajeel's image of his dragon force, I preferred it being there as he ate bradman's particles to acheive it. Thank you. :) Kid88 (talk) 05:22, July 4, 2016 (UTC)

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