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This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion is:
Rai's list will be managed (deleted or merged items of similar effect). Any other items brought to the table may be discussed in another forum or on the respective talk page at a later date.
Please do not edit this discussion.

Alright, so there I was minding my own business deleting copious amounts of spell pages when a dirty Mexican (I'll let you guys guess which one) messaged me whining about how I shouldn't delete spell pages arbitrarily. After much arguing, we finally decided to open up a forum that decided what exactly we consider a spell on this site. The definition that we decided here will be used to help navigate the deletion of unnecessary spell pages and to serve as a guide for how to handle spell pages in the future. This discussion is open to everyone obviously, but if it comes down to a vote there will likely be some sort of edit count requirement. :P Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:48,9/15/2014

I think it should be taken case by case for unnamed spells. Up until now if Natsu made his flames a different shape, people would rush to say its a new spell but really its just his magic in general. I think it needs to be clear that it is an entirely new spell and not just some general application of their magic or a very slight variation on an old spell. Also, Ill answer Mega, am I right?-- God · Pray · 19:56, September 15, 2014 (UTC) 

Nope!! It's the bitchier Mexican! >:D Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:59,9/15/2014

You could have said I was the one with the concern (not whining you asshole), not like I'm hiding it or anything. Anyway, I think one way to start is by agreeing that unnamed elemental punches should not be counted as spells. Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 20:09, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

I could've done that... but it's funnier this way! >:D Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben20:14,9/15/2014

Basically, what God said. If we can replace a spell description with the general description of its mother Magic/Curse, then there's no need for a spell page.

If Silver launches shitload of ice, that's not a new spell, it's just a general use of the Curse which allows him to control ice. If Laxus shoots lightning, it's not a new spell, why would it be? Just because it's shot into a different direction than the other spell that we already have? The same goes for Juvia and all those useless spells on her Water page, most of them are just controlling nearby water, nothing more, which is what her Magic is about. Why do we need to create unnamed pages for every single water wave she does just because it looks slightly different? Why doesn't it suffice to say in her Magic's description that she's capable of using nearby water to attack her foes?

I could go on, but I believe I got my point across. We're not a fanon wiki, so let's stop making up stuff and focus on what the series actually gives us. Things like Kamika's dances are fine because they follow the pattern, as well as create different effects/elements, or if there's an unnamed ice make spell that creates something new, it's fine to make a page for that too. For Christ's sake tho, no Water Punch or Lightning Kick :x Miskos3 Message 20:13, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

I usually have the unpopular opinions around here, so don't mind me when I say that I want all unnamed spell pages to perish and burn in hell >_> however, if it was absolutely necessary to create a spell page, we could use the existing spells to create the guidelines;

  • A similar spell page should not exist(seriously, at one time I remember 2-3 spells for a Laxus punch if my memory serves me right).
  • There is something to describe. Throwing ice/water/any other element the users controls at their oponent doesn't need a separate page for it. Also, it CAN be described, which means we accurately know its effects.
  • The spell generates something unique that separates it from other spells, but has the Magic it falls under in common with them (ex. Fire Dragon's Roar and Punch have a huge difference and a general similarity).

Those came of the top of my hat, if I can think of anything else I'll make sure to add it :/
RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk21:37,9/15/2014

I'm not gonna get deep into it, but I think if the effects of the unnamed spell are discernible enough to consider it unique usage of the Magic, then it's fine to have a about it. What Misk already said about Kamika's dances and Ice-Make Magic sounds like the right way to go. Raven's suggestions for guidelines seem alright as well. I understand the wants to consider each thing a spell given which series we're dealing with, as well as hatred of unnamed spells, but I think we can keep this simple enough without going bananas about what we hate. King of Uncool 05:45,9/16/2014 

*walks in*
*does a funny dance*
*walks out*
☆°・*CarrotSays...*・°☆ 13:25, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

I think others have already said what I think. But seriously, punches, kicks, random bolts/shots/beams all need to go if there is nothing noteworthy and differentiating about them.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 12:42, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, you guys have basically said everything that needs to be said, so tonight I'll post a condensed version of your opinions below as well as the list of spells I believe should be deleted (the list of spells is a collection of spell lists I got from several users, btw). Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:49,9/19/2014

Wouldn't it just be easier to put all spells from the same user on the same article? SeaTerror (talk) 20:11, September 19, 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, how exactly does that address the issue at hand? >_> Secondly, all of the spells a user uses are already on the aforementioned user's articles. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben21:08,9/19/2014
I think he means to delete the pages but keep the spells on the characters' articles? Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 02:30, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

Magic-coated melee attacks needs to go.
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 08:28, 9/20/2014

I agree with Wrath, magic punches, kicks, bolts, shots and beams all need to go and just update the magic's description, for the sake of uniformity in the wiki like Dark Ray, Dark Beam, Water Beam etc etc. LightningGeistLaxus Chibi 04:53, September 21, 2014 (UTC)

No I mean like this. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Bara_Bara_no_Mi One article for the type of magic with the attacks/techniques that are used on it. It would reduce clutter on this wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 18:28, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, having spell pages reduces clutter and allows us to be more accurate and thorough. If we did it like that, it would clutter up our Magic pages and we wouldn't be able to have images/gifs for a lot of our spells. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben18:43,9/23/2014

You can be accurate and thorough just by having it like that too. The image and gif thing makes sense but I'm confused as to how having a single page for a magic spell reduces clutter. SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Simple, its not cluttered all on one page, its laid out across several pages and therefore can be fleshed out more and provide more information-- God · Pray · 19:34, September 23, 2014 (UTC) 

Clutter was probably the wrong word but disorganized would fit more. Since it isn't as organized to have different pages scattered like that. Plus you can actually put all the information on a single page. There's no reason why you couldn't. Only thing that would have to be cut somewhat would be images/gifs. SeaTerror (talk) 22:15, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

A page can only be so long before it starts causing loading issues on older computers. Hence text reductions. Splitting the pages is much more efficient and allows easier maintenance as you only have to edit a small page when something new about the spell is shown-- God · Pray · 22:23,9/23/2014 
And how exactly are the spell pages disorganized? The layout is neat and clear, and the spell pages are extremely easy to locate due to the navigation on each spell page, the links to the pages on their respective Parent Magic pages as well as on the pages of the characters who use the spells. You've thrown around the words "cluttered" and "disorganized," but you've yet to explain how the spell pages fit under either of these categories. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben23:02,9/23/2014

Because having spells on the same exact page is much more organized than having them scattered throughout the wiki. Also that's a wiki issue and not a computer issue since Wikia has problems with articles that have a lot of text. The only reason older computers would lag would be the amount of GIFs on a page. SeaTerror (talk) 20:19, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

ST they aren't scattered. They are carefully placed and linked, as well as being placed on the same exact page to which they ultimately pertain. I understand that you're presenting an alternate way to handle this, but it's not going to go anywhere so altogether it's best to just leave it and walk away from the matter. =/
WrathRogue ChibiZero 20:56, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

List

Alright whores, so now that we've ironed out what a spell is and what it isn't. The following are a list of spell pages (collecting by various users I asked for help) that possibly fit the criteria for deletion. If you see a spell (or spells) on the list that you think shouldn't be deleted, mention it below so we can discuss it. Also, if you know a spell page that fit the criteria for deletion that isn't posted on the list, put it in the discussion section and we can see if it needs to be added. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben17:52,9/23/2014

Spells


Light Shield
#Lightning Body
#Lightning Beam - Lightning Cyclotron
#Lightning Eruption
#Lightning Explosion
#Lightning Flash
#Lightning Headbutt
#Lightning Kick
#Lightning Punch
#Lightning Storm
#Lightning Strike
#Liquid Ground Explosion
#Magic Sword (Listed under her equipment section but has a spell page say what?)


#Water Kick
#Water Kick Strike
#Bomb Formula
#Bora's Yacht
#Cannon: Fire
#Cosmic Rain
#Cyclone, Gust, Rumble
#Dark Force
#Dark Palm
#Darkness Shield
#Dark Ray
#Mini Explosions
#Paper Pinwheel - Paper Shuriken
#Regulus Beam - Regulus Blast (Hmm: merge)

Double Wave, Water Kick, Water Force, Water Rush, Whirlpool, Water Kick Strike
Dragon's Blade Edge
Dragon Needles Barrier
Evil Push
Evil Shock
Fairy Combination: Dust and Orb
Fairy Ray
Fire and Iron Dragon's Blazing Club
Fire and Iron Dragon's Roar
Fire, Iron and Sky Dragon's Roar
Flame God's Cloud
Flight Formation
Ground Shattering Wave
Guard Shadow
Gravity Grasp, Gravity Push
Heaven Breakdown, Heavenly Blast, Heaven Palm
Heavenly Beams, Heavenly Arrows
Ice Punch

Iron Dragon's Blinds, Iron Dragon's Mouth Seal, Iron Dragon's Restraint
Iron Rush
Light Beam, Light Blast
Lightning Cyclotron
Lightning Explosion
Lightning Headbutt, Lightning Kick, Lightning Punch
Lightning Rays
Lightning Storm
Mini Explosions, Linear Explosion
Paper Pinwheel, Paper Shuriken
Regulus Blast, Regulus Beam
Regulus Punch
Satanic Blast
Sinner's Branding
Thunder Bullets
Black Tornado, Thunder Overcast

Discussion

I say keep Lightning Body. The 'generality' for the Magic is that it allows to user to create and manipulate lightning, yet this spell allows the user to transform himself into the element. Its unique and should not be deleted. Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 17:58, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben18:27,9/23/2014

What's the difference between the one with the plunger sign and those that without?
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 17:59, 9/23/2014

No difference whatsoever. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben18:27,9/23/2014

I hope this is the correct section for me to point out but if we are going to delete the Fire, Iron and Sky Dragon's Roar, then I think we should delete Triple Element Combination Magic and Triple Unison Explosion too because they are very similar to each other. It's more like good combination/tag team/coordination attacks than actual spells imo. [furbie.helios.tissue.moup.yuki.tofu] 18:07, 9/23/2014  

Oppose Oppose - Both are named in the anime, so I think they should be kept. They already have anime-only or the like in their description. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 18:15, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
I'm okay with keeping them since they are named. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben18:27,9/23/2014
I'ma rewatch the episodes where those 3 were used just to be sure, hopefully its not just named in a dubbed episode like Guard Shadow, as seen in this little clip but also in the original, and If not then I support deleting all of them since we can just add in the magic page that some magic can also be combined and be used for defensive purposes. LightningGeistLaxus Chibi 08:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I ... have all episodes downloaded, subs, not dub. Three mages together say 'Triple Element Combination Magic' while Lisanna says 'Triple Unison Explosion', but the roars are just the three slayers using their respective roar, which then combine. Btw, in the original, Guard Shadow is named, watch Kageyama's first fight against Natsu. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Oh ok then I guess i wont have to rewatch those since its already confirmed. LightningGeistLaxus Chibi 09:09, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Oh well, can we just merge the two Paper spells? Though if it really has to go, I at least want to hear why.
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 18:09, 9/23/2014

That's what I personally suggested in my own list, merging the two Miskos3 Message 15:51, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
I think merging the two would be best. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:54,9/26/2014

For the Magic Sword, the fact that she summons it is different than all her capabilities and uses some magic, but it's only under equipment, there's no Sword Magic or Requip under her Magic & Abilities. I guess that's why somebody considered it a spell. /me shrugs. Deleting it is best, imo, but the summoning should also be mentioned under her Magic & Abilities, not just under Equipment. The sword hasn't shown any magical properties of its own though, so don't know why it's called a Magic Sword ... --Sane Lunatic (talk) 18:37, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

I say delete the spell page and move the sword from Equipment to Magic and Abilities. In the manga, the spell looked magical in nature if I'm not mistaken. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:54,9/26/2014

Guard Shadow is named in the anime, I don't think it should be removed. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 19:42, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the anime, but if that's true, then I'm fine with keeping it. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:54,9/26/2014

I think these can also be included, based on what was written above

- Blinding Light since its the same with Lightning Flash

- Dark Beam, Water Beam, Purple Beam, Wind Blade, Sand Blast since its just a different kind of beam attack

- Sand Body, Shadow Form, Water Body, Mist Body, Teleportation, Polygon Teleportation, Dark Écriture: Teleportation since they are like Lightning Body but with a different element

- Aerial Levitation its just flight using a variation of wind magic so should be added in the description

- Heat Spell just a different colored Solid Script: Fire

- Pillars its just an offensive version of Talus so they should just be merged.

- Giant Wave Attack its just like Juvia's wave attacks so we can just add it on the magic's description

- Since Light Shield and Darkness Shield is included then we should also include Dark Barrier, Tree Shield, Hair Shield, Guard Shadow, Lightning Shield, Wave Shield, Gust Shield and just mention in the magic description that it can also be used for defensive purposes.

- Since Black Tornado, Thunder Overcast and Lightning Rays are included in the list might as well include Water Blast and Wind Blast and Wind & Lightning Unison coz they are just a different version of a beam attack of the Storm Magic or we can just include one per element like a holder version of tempesta's curse?

- White Dragon's Punch & Lightning Flame Dragon's Fist coz its just a punch with an element but others might say its an "unnamed dragon slayer spell" so its an exception, but if it is, should all dragon slayers that uses an unnamed punch will automatically have their own spell pages? but i remember someone proposed a spell to be made for wendy for punching Ezel with her fist coated with wind and people says its just a normal punch covered with an element so no need to make them, so i guess these punches should be deleted right?

And I'm opposed to the deletion of Thunder Bullets coz its just like a lightning magic version of Shadow Dragon's Scales, Dark Delete and [[[Project:Deleted Page|Darkness Spread]] unless we also delete all unnamed spells that creates elemental orbs as a form of attacks, then im ok with it.LightningGeistLaxus Chibi 05:14, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

  • Agree with the Blinding Light and Beams, Blades and Blasts.
  • It was agreed that Lightning Body would be kept, so the others should be kept.
  • I guess Aerial Levitation should be kept, it's unique enough, and, after all, all spells are just variations of their parent magic.
  • Like Ice-Make, imo, all of the Solid Script spells should be kept.
  • Agree with the merging of Pillars and Talus.
  • Agree with GWA.
  • Agree with all shields except Guard Shadow, it's named in the original, not just in the dub.
  • Agree with the punches.
  • Imo, the scales and spread should also be deleted. Delete was named, at least in the anime, so should be kept. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

White Dragon's Punch, yes. LFD Fist, no. That was a very specific punch that worked much differently than others. Rather than being coated in lightning and fire, it was fire that dropped a bolt of lightning, which no other spells or abilities from the Dragon Mode do.

Also, I'm on my phone right now so for the moment this is tl;dr, but are there any of the curse spells on there? If not, I have a couple that should be put up for debate.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 23:02, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Cyclone, Gust and Rumble are up there. Those are curses, yes?
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 03:10, 9/24/2014

Keep: Light Blast, Paper Shuriken(merge with Pinwheel or erase 1 of the two? they look similar), Satanic Blast, Sinner's Branding, Dragon's Blade Edge, Evil Push, Fairy Combination: Dust and Orb, Fire and Iron Dragon's Blazing Club, Fire and Iron Dragon's Roar,  Fire, Iron and Sky Dragon's Roar, Ground Shattering Wave, Bora's Yacht(DAFUQ?), Bomb Formula, Cannon: Fire, Rumble, Darkness Shield, Regulus Beam/Blast(merge maybe?) Light Shield, Lightning Storm, Strike, Explosion, Eruption, Beam, Body, Cyclotron.

Delete: Everything else on the list, plus Water Slash and Water Punch I guess.
RavenMestSting Anime Square(S)talk08:32,9/24/2014

Lightning Sphere and Lightning Wheel? Though I think Lightning Eruption should be kept, looking at the way the fight was carried out; Mystogan used Skyscraper to distract Laxus and set up Five Layered Magic Circle: Sacred Song, Laxus tricked him and set up the eruption. Just my interpretation though ... What about Ice-Make: Cocoon, it's unnamed and can just be attributed to Freeze in Ice Magic, he could freeze Tempesta's tornadoes, why not the air around him? --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

If Lightning Sphere and Lightning Wheel will be deleted then I guess we can also delete other spells that creates a spherical or circular shapes like Black Lightning Sphere, Polygon Sphere and Thunderbolt since they are all unnamed spells and we can just add it on the description.

And with Fairy Raven's proposal for the deletion of Water Slash and the inclusion of Erza's Lightning Cyclotron then we can also delete Flame Slash, and Water Spear Strike for uniformity since the user can use use an attack coated with diff elements, but does this mean all unnamed holder elemental attacks needs to be deleted too?LightningGeistLaxus Chibi 09:09, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so...

Keep:

  1. Cannon: Fire (Pict should be in the same boat as Ice-Make and Paper Magic imo)
  2. Anything anyone proposed that's Ice-Make
  3. Paper Shuriken (merge it)
  4. Regulus Beam (merge it)
  5. Bora's Yacht (?)

Remove:

  1. Everything else that's on that list.
  2. Heat Spell
  3. All of Tempesta's spells
  4. White Dragon's Punch
  5. Franmalth's Connection (merge it with Absorption. Please, please, please. They are literally the same thing. One situation involves magic, one involves physical substance. He touches both with his extended limbs and absorbs the soul. How is it any different aside from what he's absorbing? There's more than one way to skin a cat, folks. This is a good example of clutter and unnecessary pages, and to have a page for absorbing magic and one for absorbing people when the process is exactly the same and the end result is exactly the same is just retarded, by all standards. A soul is a soul.)

I may add more as time goes on, but just before we delete stuff, let's make a list of what needs to be added to page descriptions before the content is lost and we forget.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 12:01, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Long story short, I agree that every spell on the list is redundant in one way or another, so most of them should go poof, although some of them just need merging with already existing page or being added to the general description of the mother Magic. Miskos3 Message 15:51, September 25, 2014 (UTC)

Why does the Fairy Combination: Dust and Orb also has to go? Yes, it is unnamed, but it is in the manga.
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 13:07, 9/26/2014

Being anime or manga exclusive changes nothing about it being just dust and Ever most likely going to perform Leprechaun ._. Miskos3 Message 15:24, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Wrath, Franmalth's spells are named, and I don't see why all of Tempesta's spells would be deleted. He has a lot of different things he can do with his Magic and they should be kept as spells Bickslow Doll Bickslow Doll3Bickslow Doll 2 16:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Imo, Tempesta's spells should be the respective 'calamities', i.e. wind/fire/lightning/earthquake(?) Miskos3 Message 17:03, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Support Support - Give a spell for each element he has used (named after the calamity, I guess), delete all but one of any element shown. Basically combine Rumble, Cyclone and Gust, I guess ... --Sane Lunatic (talk) 17:55, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

So? What now?
Choko's Text Tag LEFT AT: → 17:44, 10/7/2014 17:44, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

I guess Rai first has to get over the gloom of this chapter, then read through all the opinions here, then update the list by removing and adding according to own judgement, then present the list again while deleting the spells that everybody agreed should be deleted ... Huge task. >.> --Sane Lunatic (talk) 17:55, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

My only problem with Franmalth's connection and absorption is that to absorb, he has to connect first. What does he do when stretches and connects with someone? He absorbs their soul. He was merely shouting that he established a connection. Absorption is the whole process, connection is what he must do to absorb in the first place. They are therefore the same thing and his abilities are being taken too literally, thus making the entire thing a complete redundancy.

That's my two cents.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 03:14, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Bump Miskos3 Message 17:54, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

This has been open for five weeks. Let's get the big things out of the way and talk page the little things as they come.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 19:27, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Although I'm not really sure where we start. The list itself is huge and everyone's proposed addition lists are huge as well. >_> Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben19:44,10/22/2014
Then only delete what's on your list (or merge in the case of the few that have been voted for merging), and then make a list of the other spells which people brought up which may or may not be ambiguous and then take those to the individual talk pages, or make a new forum for them. Whichever, but let's get this shit over with. It's been open long enough. Two-part voting is better than just leaving this open for months on end without anyone really caring enough to give an honest fuck out of the blue.
WrathRogue ChibiZero 19:50, October 22, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. Put up those guidelines/policy for spell pages, delete those that clearly go against it (because honestly, if we were to discuss every fucking spell page, we'd be here till next ice age) and put up discussions only for those that you really have no idea how to deal with. Miskos3 Message 19:56, October 22, 2014 (UTC)
Alright, I'll get started deleting the pages today. Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben20:15,10/22/2014
So we can expect it done by....New years 2017?-- God · Pray · 20:59,10/22/2014 
Lol, screw you! I said I'd start today and I'm going to start today! >:D Iam...    JakuhōRaikōben21:29,10/22/2014
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