Talk:Dragon Force

Is it really Dragon Force?
Have we got confirmation that the form Laxus and Cobra take is actually Dragon Force? 09:39, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

They both get dragon scales when they use Dragon Slayer Magic. But, it'd be great if there was a reference about this. 23:45, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Magic, Spell or Ability
We have this page listed as a Magic, in the White Dragon Slayer Magic page and Shadow Dragon Slayer Magic page we have them as spells, but I think Dragon Force is an ability for Dragon Slayers. So, I propose we count Dragon Force as an ability.

Ability. 22:13, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ability. 23:05,8/25/2012

Ability as well 00:00, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ability. 00:24, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ability. 00:35,8/26/2012

Um should we point out in the trivia that the 1st generation dragon force is stronger the 2nd and 3rd?

I wonder when will Wendy will activate Dragon Force
I was wondering when will Wendy Marvell will gain and activate her Dragon Force. It would be awesome for her to use her Sky Dragon Slayer Magic at its full potential.

Let me know if you have some opinion about this.

--Warmachine375 (talk) 12:13, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Wendy has not activated this ability. Article talk pages are for discussing issues relevant to articles, not for personal views or asking questions. Such things should be in a forum or blog. 12:40, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Second Generation
Whatever Laxus and Cobra used is definitely not Dragon Force. There is no reference to that, and the fact that they get dragon scales is probably because of that dragon lacrima. I personaly think that most 2d gen simply can't use dragon slayer magic unless they have this dragon-like body. Laxus howewer later learned to use it without transformation, but Cobra didn't because he had no poison to eat after Cubelios disappeared, so his magic level didn't changed. I know that this is speculation and don't ask to include it anywhere, but 2d gen dragon force is a speculation too. If you need proof, everyone was surprised by seeing Sting and Rouge use dragon force at will, though 3d gen is supposed to have the powers of both 1st and 2nd gens. Also, dragon force is supposed to be ultimate super-destructive dragon slayer magic, while Laxus and Cobra's was not really very different from non-dragon force 1st gen (Laxus is simpy more powerful than Natsu or Gajeel, that's the only difference). So 2d gen's transformation is likely some side effect of their lacrimas, which disssappears after a certain level is reached, but not a dragon force. That's why we should write someting like "It is unknown if Second Generation can enter Dragon Force". Do you agree?

To be honest, I've always found this matter iffy. Like you said, 3rd Generation DS are a combination of 1st and 2nd Generation DS. If 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will yet 3rd Generation DS can, wouldn't you say that it's because 2nd Generation DS can? 19:50, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Not neccesarily imo because it might just mean that they need both 1st DS abilities AND lacrima to enter it whenever they want, it doesn't mean that one of the gens separated has to possess the same ability. I'm gonna have to agree with the anon, if it's not specifically stated to be Dragon Force, we shouldn't speculate about it. 21:45, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

This is just me thinking out loud, but Dragon Force gives one the characteristics of an actual Dragon, which includes scales of some sort and sharper canines, both of which Cobra and Laxus attain when they make use of their Dragon Slayer Magic. 22:29, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's been a little while, but I feel this is an important discussion which wasn't resolved and so I'm commenting here and also leaving it on the Quick News. Reading through everyone's comments, it's clearly a difficult issue but here're my thoughts on it.

For one thing, it's true that the forms Cobra and Laxus took on when activating their Lacrima were never actually called "Dragon Force" but having flipped through Mangareader's versions of Chapter 98 through to Chapter 101, I don't see "Dragon Force" as a term used at all. If it was used, I think the earliest it can be is in the battle against Zero, which came long after the fights against Laxus and Cobra. As such, those two cases not being called "Dragon Force" might be passable. If there's another translation that proves me wrong, let's hear it.

What makes this hard is initially, we thought they could only use Dragon Slayer Magic when this form was activated but Laxus showed no signs of activating it in his more recent battles and yet was still using Dragon Slayer techniques. Similarly, this move of Cobra's is named by us, though we can still call it a Dragon Slayer technique since it was used against a Dragon and is clearly causing damage, even though Cobra did not appear to activate this form against the Rock Dragon.

The idea that the 2nd Gen's transformation is some side effect of their Lacrima which disappears after a certain level is reached, while not necessarily impossible seems highly unlikely to me. While you can make the argument for it to be possible with Laxus due to his training, Cobra was in jail ever since the Nirvana arc and should not have had any such chance to obtain higher levels. For this though, I'm assuming we still count the KotSS arc as non-canon despite its references in the manga.

As such, I think we have two options and implications they would bring up:


 * : Keep things as they are. This means to me that because the 2nd Generation Dragon Slayers have Lacrima in their body, they can use Dragon Force at will, but it is not inherently necessary for using Dragon Slayer techniques. Any differences in power and such will have to be accounted for through differences in character strength and history (i.e. those not trained by a Dragon aren't as capable with the power as those who were). The implication that since the 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will, yet 3rd Generation DS can, it is because the 2nd Generation DS can will remain.
 * : The 2nd Generations do not use Dragon Force when they activate their Lacrima, but rather, they activate something else entirely. What this would imply, at least to me, is that because the 3rd Generation was trained by Dragons and has Lacrima in them, what they activate via the Lacrima is Dragon Force. The problems I see here are that if we go for this option A) We don't then have a term for what the 2nd Generation DS are actually using when they activate the Lacrima. As we've seen since, it's not an inherent requirement for utilizing Dragon Slayer techniques. B) It would seem kinda odd to have them look as if they're using Dragon Force, filling in essentially all the necessary criteria, but then saying that they're not using it. The argument that it goes away after a certain amount of time, while it could explain that, would be speculation.

From what I can gather on other sites, they seem to accept the current notion that if 1st Generation DS aren't able to enter Dragon Force at will, yet 3rd Generation DS can, it is because the 2nd Generation DS can. As we all know, we do have an impact on the wider FT community, whether or not we care. Naturally if we change this, we're going to have to really justify it, not because we want to give others what we want, but we are ultimately an encyclopedia and we need to think about how the information here is going to be taken.

As such, I'll leave this around for more people to give their inputs.

I can see what the issue is here. We know almost nothing about 2nd GEN DS and their Dragon Force Mode. However, at least in the anime, Cobra was confirmed to possess Dragon Force in the filler Key of the Starry Sky arc, so it all comes down to whether we accept the abilities of the characters demonstrated in that arc as canonical or not. Personally, I support no changes being made, because I don't think anyone from the anime team would have the liberty to add an ability that the author himself would be against. 11:48,11/30/2013

To be perfectly fair, there's nothing here that we can say that will be the concrete truth, which isn't necessarily helpful since we're a wiki that sets much store by direct facts and tellings. To a point we have to speculate, and it's truly about which involves less speculation (as well as which involves more common sense). As such, I pick the first option as the most suitable, as it doesn't leave a hole in the knowledge we are presenting to those who simply come by to look around. I was one once, and if something like having all my accepted knowledge about a certain topic be thrown out the window occurred, I'd be majorly confused. 15:10, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

As Wrath has said, if we include Second Generation Dragon Slayers in the Dragon Force article then we're going to need to allow some speculation. However, if we want to keep things purely factual, then here are the facts. The only people confirmed to attain Dragon Force are Natsu Dragneel, Sting Eucliffe and Rogue Cheney.

The current argument for Second Generation Slayers to be included is that they displayed dragon-like traits - if only at one point. However, they were never confirmed to be capable of Dragon Force, and every instance since their introduction has proven that both Laxus and Cobra can use their magic without assuming dragon-like traits. I don't know about you guys, but I feel that ignoring new information in preference of an older example is usually bad practice. If I had to guess, the patches of scales they showed in their introduction was probably just Mashima's attempt to distinguish their magic as being Dragon Slayer in nature. 15:46, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

And there's also how everyone was always awed when anyone was confirmed to go into Dragon Force. "Oh that's Dragon Force" "That's the true strength of a Dragon" ect... but with Cobra and Laxus it was just "You are a Dragon Slayer?" rather than "You can go into Dragon Force?". Unfortunately that still doesn't help me decide. I really want it to not be Dragon Force, but from an objective point of view, I'm undecided. NoNickNeeded (talk) 15:52, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to speculate and claim that dragon scales and etc. appearance mean Dragon Force, then Gajeel should also be included. 16:18, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * When has Gajeel had ever Dragon Scales? Metal Scales ≠ Dragon Scales.


 * Weren't they in shape of dragon scales? And btw, what do we consider the dual modes? 16:41, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the "shape" of a Dragon Scale is per se, but they are a named technique, seemingly activated at will and they're specific to Iron Dragon Slayer Magic because they have metallic properties which Gajeel. And to my recollection, the dual-modes are considered abilities if that's what you meant.