Forum:Spells

Alright, so there I was minding my own business deleting copious amounts of spell pages when a dirty Mexican (I'll let you guys guess which one) messaged me whining about how I shouldn't delete spell pages arbitrarily. After much arguing, we finally decided to open up a forum that decided what exactly we consider a spell on this site. The definition that we decided here will be used to help navigate the deletion of unnecessary spell pages and to serve as a guide for how to handle spell pages in the future. This discussion is open to everyone obviously, but if it comes down to a vote there will likely be some sort of edit count requirement. :P 19:48,9/15/2014

I think it should be taken case by case for unnamed spells. Up until now if Natsu made his flames a different shape, people would rush to say its a new spell but really its just his magic in general. I think it needs to be clear that it is an entirely new spell and not just some general application of their magic or a very slight variation on an old spell. Also, Ill answer Mega, am I right?--
 * Nope!! It's the bitchier Mexican! >:D 19:59,9/15/2014

You could have said I was the one with the concern (not whining you asshole), not like I'm hiding it or anything. Anyway, I think one way to start is by agreeing that unnamed elemental punches should not be counted as spells. 20:09, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I could've done that... but it's funnier this way! >:D 20:14,9/15/2014

Basically, what God said. If we can replace a spell description with the general description of its mother Magic/Curse, then there's no need for a spell page.

If Silver launches shitload of ice, that's not a new spell, it's just a general use of the Curse which allows him to control ice. If Laxus shoots lightning, it's not a new spell, why would it be? Just because it's shot into a different direction than the other spell that we already have? The same goes for Juvia and all those useless spells on her Water page, most of them are just controlling nearby water, nothing more, which is what her Magic is about. Why do we need to create unnamed pages for every single water wave she does just because it looks slightly different? Why doesn't it suffice to say in her Magic's description that she's capable of using nearby water to attack her foes?

I could go on, but I believe I got my point across. We're not a fanon wiki, so let's stop making up stuff and focus on what the series actually gives us. Things like Kamika's dances are fine because they follow the pattern, as well as create different effects/elements, or if there's an unnamed ice make spell that creates something new, it's fine to make a page for that too. For Christ's sake tho, no Water Punch or Lightning Kick :x 20:13, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

I usually have the unpopular opinions around here, so don't mind me when I say that I want all unnamed spell pages to perish and burn in hell >_> however, if it was absolutely necessary to create a spell page, we could use the existing spells to create the guidelines; Those came of the top of my hat, if I can think of anything else I'll make sure to add it :/ 21:37,9/15/2014
 * A similar spell page should not exist(seriously, at one time I remember 2-3 spells for a Laxus punch if my memory serves me right).
 * There is something to describe. Throwing ice/water/any other element the users controls at their oponent doesn't need a separate page for it. Also, it CAN be described, which means we accurately know its effects.
 * The spell generates something unique that separates it from other spells, but has the Magic it falls under in common with them (ex. Fire Dragon's Roar and Punch have a huge difference and a general similarity).

I'm not gonna get deep into it, but I think if the effects of the unnamed spell are discernible enough to consider it unique usage of the Magic, then it's fine to have a about it. What Misk already said about Kamika's dances and Ice-Make Magic sounds like the right way to go. Raven's suggestions for guidelines seem alright as well. I understand the wants to consider each thing a spell given which series we're dealing with, as well as hatred of unnamed spells, but I think we can keep this simple enough without going bananas about what we hate.

* walks in* * does a funny dance* * walks out* 13:25, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

I think others have already said what I think. But seriously, punches, kicks, random bolts/shots/beams all need to go if there is nothing noteworthy and differentiating about them. 12:42, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, you guys have basically said everything that needs to be said, so tonight I'll post a condensed version of your opinions below as well as the list of spells I believe should be deleted (the list of spells is a collection of spell lists I got from several users, btw). 19:49,9/19/2014

Wouldn't it just be easier to put all spells from the same user on the same article? SeaTerror (talk) 20:11, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Firstly, how exactly does that address the issue at hand? >_> Secondly, all of the spells a user uses are already on the aforementioned user's articles. 21:08,9/19/2014
 * I think he means to delete the pages but keep the spells on the characters' articles? 02:30, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

Magic-coated melee attacks needs to go.

I agree with Wrath, magic punches, kicks, bolts, shots and beams all need to go and just update the magic's description, for the sake of uniformity in the wiki like Dark Ray, Dark Beam, Water Beam etc etc. 04:53, September 21, 2014 (UTC)

No I mean like this. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Bara_Bara_no_Mi One article for the type of magic with the attacks/techniques that are used on it. It would reduce clutter on this wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 18:28, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, having spell pages reduces clutter and allows us to be more accurate and thorough. If we did it like that, it would clutter up our Magic pages and we wouldn't be able to have images/gifs for a lot of our spells. 18:43,9/23/2014

You can be accurate and thorough just by having it like that too. The image and gif thing makes sense but I'm confused as to how having a single page for a magic spell reduces clutter. SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Simple, its not cluttered all on one page, its laid out across several pages and therefore can be fleshed out more and provide more information--

Clutter was probably the wrong word but disorganized would fit more. Since it isn't as organized to have different pages scattered like that. Plus you can actually put all the information on a single page. There's no reason why you couldn't. Only thing that would have to be cut somewhat would be images/gifs. SeaTerror (talk) 22:15, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * A page can only be so long before it starts causing loading issues on older computers. Hence text reductions. Splitting the pages is much more efficient and allows easier maintenance as you only have to edit a small page when something new about the spell is shown--
 * And how exactly are the spell pages disorganized? The layout is neat and clear, and the spell pages are extremely easy to locate due to the navigation on each spell page, the links to the pages on their respective Parent Magic pages as well as on the pages of the characters who use the spells. You've thrown around the words "cluttered" and "disorganized," but you've yet to explain how the spell pages fit under either of these categories. 23:02,9/23/2014

Because having spells on the same exact page is much more organized than having them scattered throughout the wiki. Also that's a wiki issue and not a computer issue since Wikia has problems with articles that have a lot of text. The only reason older computers would lag would be the amount of GIFs on a page. SeaTerror (talk) 20:19, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * ST they aren't scattered. They are carefully placed and linked, as well as being placed on the same exact page to which they ultimately pertain. I understand that you're presenting an alternate way to handle this, but it's not going to go anywhere so altogether it's best to just leave it and walk away from the matter. =/ 20:56, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

List
Alright whores, so now that we've ironed out what a spell is and what it isn't. The following are a list of spell pages (collecting by various users I asked for help) that possibly fit the criteria for deletion. If you see a spell (or spells) on the list that you think shouldn't be deleted, mention it below so we can discuss it. Also, if you know a spell page that fit the criteria for deletion that isn't posted on the list, put it in the discussion section and we can see if it needs to be added. 17:52,9/23/2014

Discussion
I say keep Lightning Body. The 'generality' for the Magic is that it allows to user to create and manipulate lightning, yet this spell allows the user to transform himself into the element. Its unique and should not be deleted. 17:58, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. 18:27,9/23/2014

What's the difference between the one with the plunger sign and those that without?
 * No difference whatsoever. 18:27,9/23/2014

I hope this is the correct section for me to point out but if we are going to delete the Fire, Iron and Sky Dragon's Roar, then I think we should delete Triple Element Combination Magic and Triple Unison Explosion too because they are very similar to each other. It's more like good combination/tag team/coordination attacks than actual spells imo.
 * Both are named in the anime, so I think they should be kept. They already have anime-only or the like in their description. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 18:15, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with keeping them since they are named. 18:27,9/23/2014


 * I'ma rewatch the episodes where those 3 were used just to be sure, hopefully its not just named in a dubbed episode like Guard Shadow, as seen in this little clip but also in the original, and If not then I support deleting all of them since we can just add in the magic page that some magic can also be combined and be used for defensive purposes.  08:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I ... have all episodes downloaded, subs, not dub. Three mages together say 'Triple Element Combination Magic' while Lisanna says 'Triple Unison Explosion', but the roars are just the three slayers using their respective roar, which then combine. Btw, in the original, Guard Shadow is named, watch Kageyama's first fight against Natsu. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh ok then I guess i wont have to rewatch those since its already confirmed. 09:09, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Oh well, can we just merge the two Paper spells? Though if it really has to go, I at least want to hear why.
 * That's what I personally suggested in my own list, merging the two 15:51, September 25, 2014 (UTC)

For the Magic Sword, the fact that she summons it is different than all her capabilities and uses some magic, but it's only under equipment, there's no Sword Magic or Requip under her Magic & Abilities. I guess that's why somebody considered it a spell. /me shrugs. Deleting it is best, imo, but the summoning should also be mentioned under her Magic & Abilities, not just under Equipment. The sword hasn't shown any magical properties of its own though, so don't know why it's called a Magic Sword ... --Sane Lunatic (talk) 18:37, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Guard Shadow is named in the anime, I don't think it should be removed. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 19:42, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think these can also be included, based on what was written above

- Blinding Light since its the same with Lightning Flash

- Dark Beam, Water Beam, Purple Beam, Wind Blade, Sand Blast since its just a different kind of beam attack

- Sand Body, Shadow Form, Water Body, Mist Body, Teleportation, Polygon Teleportation, Dark Écriture: Teleportation since they are like Lightning Body but with a different element

- Aerial Levitation its just flight using a variation of wind magic so should be added in the description

- Heat Spell just a different colored Solid Script: Fire

- Pillars its just an offensive version of Talus so they should just be merged.

- Giant Wave Attack its just like Juvia's wave attacks so we can just add it on the magic's description

- Since Light Shield and Darkness Shield is included then we should also include Dark Barrier, Tree Shield, Hair Shield, Guard Shadow, Lightning Shield, Wave Shield, Gust Shield and just mention in the magic description that it can also be used for defensive purposes.

- Since Black Tornado, Thunder Overcast and Lightning Rays are included in the list might as well include Water Blast and Wind Blast and Wind & Lightning Unison coz they are just a different version of a beam attack of the Storm Magic or we can just include one per element like a holder version of tempesta's curse?

- White Dragon's Punch & Lightning Flame Dragon's Fist coz its just a punch with an element but others might say its an "unnamed dragon slayer spell" so its an exception, but if it is, should all dragon slayers that uses an unnamed punch will automatically have their own spell pages? but i remember someone proposed a spell to be made for wendy for punching Ezel with her fist coated with wind and people says its just a normal punch covered with an element so no need to make them, so i guess these punches should be deleted right?

And I'm opposed to the deletion of Thunder Bullets coz its just like a lightning magic version of Shadow Dragon's Scales, Dark Delete and Darkness Spread unless we also delete all unnamed spells that creates elemental orbs as a form of attacks, then im ok with it. 05:14, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with the Blinding Light and Beams, Blades and Blasts.
 * It was agreed that Lightning Body would be kept, so the others should be kept.
 * I guess Aerial Levitation should be kept, it's unique enough, and, after all, all spells are just variations of their parent magic.
 * Like Ice-Make, imo, all of the Solid Script spells should be kept.
 * Agree with the merging of Pillars and Talus.
 * Agree with GWA.
 * Agree with all shields except Guard Shadow, it's named in the original, not just in the dub.
 * Agree with the punches.
 * Imo, the scales and spread should also be deleted. Delete was named, at least in the anime, so should be kept. --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

White Dragon's Punch, yes. LFD Fist, no. That was a very specific punch that worked much differently than others. Rather than being coated in lightning and fire, it was fire that dropped a bolt of lightning, which no other spells or abilities from the Dragon Mode do.

Also, I'm on my phone right now so for the moment this is tl;dr, but are there any of the curse spells on there? If not, I have a couple that should be put up for debate. 23:02, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Cyclone, Gust and Rumble are up there. Those are curses, yes?

Keep: Light Blast, Paper Shuriken(merge with Pinwheel or erase 1 of the two? they look similar), Satanic Blast, Sinner's Branding, Dragon's Blade Edge, Evil Push, Fairy Combination: Dust and Orb, Fire and Iron Dragon's Blazing Club, Fire and Iron Dragon's Roar, Fire, Iron and Sky Dragon's Roar, Ground Shattering Wave, Bora's Yacht(DAFUQ?), Bomb Formula, Cannon: Fire, Rumble, Darkness Shield, Regulus Beam/Blast(merge maybe?) Light Shield, Lightning Storm, Strike, Explosion, Eruption, Beam, Body, Cyclotron.

Delete: Everything else on the list, plus Water Slash and Water Punch I guess. 08:32,9/24/2014

Lightning Sphere and Lightning Wheel? Though I think Lightning Eruption should be kept, looking at the way the fight was carried out; Mystogan used Skyscraper to distract Laxus and set up Five Layered Magic Circle: Sacred Song, Laxus tricked him and set up the eruption. Just my interpretation though ... What about Ice-Make: Cocoon, it's unnamed and can just be attributed to Freeze in Ice Magic, he could freeze Tempesta's tornadoes, why not the air around him? --Sane Lunatic (talk) 08:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

If Lightning Sphere and Lightning Wheel will be deleted then I guess we can also delete other spells that creates a spherical or circular shapes like Black Lightning Sphere, Polygon Sphere and Thunderbolt since they are all unnamed spells and we can just add it on the description.

And with Fairy Raven's proposal for the deletion of Water Slash and the inclusion of Erza's Lightning Cyclotron then we can also delete Flame Slash, and Water Spear Strike for uniformity since the user can use use an attack coated with diff elements, but does this mean all unnamed holder elemental attacks needs to be deleted too? 09:09, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so...

Keep:
 * 1) Cannon: Fire (Pict should be in the same boat as Ice-Make and Paper Magic imo)
 * 2) Anything anyone proposed that's Ice-Make
 * 3) Paper Shuriken (merge it)
 * 4) Regulus Beam (merge it)
 * 5) Bora's Yacht (?)

Remove:
 * 1) Everything else that's on that list.
 * 2) Heat Spell
 * 3) All of Tempesta's spells
 * 4) White Dragon's Punch
 * 5) Franmalth's Connection (merge it with Absorption. Please, please, please. They are literally the same thing. One situation involves magic, one involves physical substance. He touches both with his extended limbs and absorbs the soul. How is it any different aside from what he's absorbing? There's more than one way to skin a cat, folks. This is a good example of clutter and unnecessary pages, and to have a page for absorbing magic and one for absorbing people when the process is exactly the same and the end result is exactly the same is just retarded, by all standards. A soul is a soul.)

I may add more as time goes on, but just before we delete stuff, let's make a list of what needs to be added to page descriptions before the content is lost and we forget. 12:01, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Long story short, I agree that every spell on the list is redundant in one way or another, so most of them should go poof, although some of them just need merging with already existing page or being added to the general description of the mother Magic. 15:51, September 25, 2014 (UTC)