Talk:Zirconis/Archive 1

Name
So, like I saw in a version of Chapter 301, and in pics Chaos just uploaded (like this one), it seems that his name can be translated as "Zirconis". I think it makes more sense than Zealconis, given that there's a mineral called zircon, what relates to his epithet. Also, I'm not sure about his epiphet, since 翡翠 (Hisui) can be translated as Jade... 22:38,10/20/2012
 * PS: Think about this like the previous discussion we had. 02:32,10/21/2012

A lot of things in japanese can be translated in different ways... so about the epithet, talk to Chaos. About the name, I'm, both ways seem fine... 02:23, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

9:26, 10/21/12

Zirconis! 13:38, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

18:57, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

01:34, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes
Umm.. tbh, I hate Zirconis' main quotes as it's more like he explaining the Dragon King Fest. and Acnologia, can't be said to be a decent quotes.. That why I'm here to propose another quotes he said, which is I this, as it shown more of his pride as a dragon. 21:25,12/8/2012
 * 1) "...Over 400 years ago... dragons were the kings of this world, freely soaring the skies, dominating the lands, crossing the seas... we led a prosperous life. Everything in the world, belonged to the dragons."
 * 2) To Lucy Heartfilia: "I don't like humans. Though I don't mind having them for a meal."
 * #2, as it's the only one worth mentioning... 21:52,12/8/2012

The quote it had before was wrong. It was not supposed to be there because it has nothing to do with his personality. So I've removed it. However, the propose has to do with how Dragons were in the past, it also isn't about his personality so it cannot be used 21:34, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

2. About him. Not about dragons. 02:02, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

07:13, December 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) 2 10:44, December 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) 2 What Tutles said, it's about him. 10:45,12/9/2012


 * 1) 2 12:16,12/9/2012

Deceased?
Well as of the recent chapter, technically its deceased (present Zirconis) and active (past Zirconis). Question is, should we leave its status as it is? or do we change it? --FTB UltearM (talk) 16:14, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering the same but I think it's better to leave him as deceased or maybe add "brought back" or "revived". I still think deceased is enough though. --FirePit (talk) 16:23, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Status was changed since he "came back" to life via the Eclipse Gate. 16:24, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

awesome :D I think everyone is okay with that --FirePit (talk) 16:29, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

He didn't come back to life, he was alive 400 years ago and was brought to the present. However, yeah, he is considered alive because in the present, he is alive 20:04, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Lecherous Dragon?
In the personality section it's mentioned that Zirconis is lecherous. Is this really fitting? To me it seems like it is a matter of how they taste and has nothing to do with sexuality.

Edit: NoNickNeeded (talk) 18:24, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

can you sign your post please? also he DID refer to himself as a "Lady's man" so maybe it is kinda more than just taste --FirePit (talk) 18:08, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Clothes removal
Didn't Wendy say that Zirconis used magic to remove the clothes? Doesn't that mean it was a seperated thing from his usual Dragon Breath? --FirePit (talk) 18:20, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * His roar is magic and its ability is to remove clothes--

I don't think so. Wendy specifically found it surprising that dragons can use magic other than the element associated with them, so I think the breath attack he used was separate from his usual Dragon's Roar, personally. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

He can use Magic that isn't just Dragon-oriented; that's the real power of the Dragons that Future Rogue was talking about. They aren't hindered by their own powers, which is what Wendy and Zirconis himself were referring to as well. 21:22, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Magic
Alright, so it's quite apparent that Dragons can perform more than just standard Dragon Magic, as Motherglare can pop out eggs, and Zirconis himself stated that Dragons have Magic which strips humans of their dignity. Ergo, as stripping people of their clothing really does "strip" people of their dignity, I propose that we create a new Magic page and add this to his Magic & Abilities section (properly) as Disrobing Magic, as it is not Dispelling Magic (no enchantments on the regular clothing). What do you fellow whores think about this? (~._.)~ 00:54, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I think its far too confusing at this point to really make a decision at this point but it may just be that I am confused and no one else is, so I'll stay neutral--

But leaning towards Oppose - It is quite early. I feel like we will see more of his Magic in the upcoming chapters but I doubt his Magic is purely based on disrobing (If so, he'd be quite a lame Dragon). For now, let's take our time on creating the new Magic page. However, we should still add what we know to Zirconis' M&A page. 05:47, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Same reasons as God and Ummy. 06:47, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I just don't get the logic of his Magic, tbh. All I can say for now is for us to wait.

I don't really like the sound of Disrobing Magic... Besides, we've still not seen enough of him, so I say we wait and see ( ~._.)~ 09:54,5/19/2013

Let's wait.

Page Split
So currently, we have the content of this page on Zirconis information mixed between information regarding the spirit encountered in Chapter 301 as well as the live Zirconis who came out of the Eclipse Gate. Carla has acknowledged(see here) that they spoke to Zirconis from the graveyard and he is not the same as the one from the gate who Wendy tried to talk to. He is a being from a different time.

As such, it's my opinion that the page should be split into two articles. One for Zirconis' spirit encountered in the graveyard and the Zirconis we currently have battling Wendy and Mirajane. Given the fact that they are from two different points of time and were in the present, not that dissimilar to Lucy and her counterpart, I don't think they should be sharing the same page. Especially as far as plot goes.

If there's any concern about their pages becoming short, note that this is roughly what the spirit's page would look like while the current Zirconis' page will undoubtedly get bigger due to the fact that he's not out of the series yet.

As such, I propose the page split, with the spirit's page being named Zirconis (Spirit) and the page on the live Zirconis named Zirconis. Please provide your thoughts on this proposal.

00:01, June 7, 2013 (UTC) I do agree that it doesn't differ that much to how we have different pages for Lucy and Rogue but I believe it was done to avoid mixing up info because both counterparts were involved within the story simultaneously, but I feel like Zirconis' page looks fine as is and I don't think we will be seeing the spirit again, so we won't have any mess-ups 12:33, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Very much like Prime said, they are two different characters with very different roles in the story, not unlike Future Rogue and Future Lucy. As far as plot goes, having two different characters with two heavily different roles sharing the same page doesn't sit well with me. As such, I feel that a page split is highly appropriate. 17:20, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Zirconis' spirit has a different plot.

The problem with Lucy/Rogue and their future counter-parts is that they are two people acting at the same time, so trying to put both of them into one article would make it hella confusing. However, that isn't the case when it comes to Zirconis. Without any confusion, the events of both Spirit Zirconis and 'real' Zirconis can be simply be in one page in the order they happened in the GMG timeline. Having two pages for him is then unnecessary, in my opinion. 17:41, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I was going to say neutral, but that won't get us anywhere. His spirit and him are both the same character. Creating a separate page just because his spirit appeared in one chapter is unnecessary. Even if he doesn't remember, Wendy and the others are all well-aware of who he is. It would be similar to when Jellal lost his memories or when he became evil; creating a page Jellal Fernandes (Possessed/Evil) or something along that line. Something similar to when Wendy fought Erigor is bound to happen anytime — she will make him remember somehow with her Magic. Even if he doesn't remember who they are, the page is the page is the page. The character is the character is the character. Reading this sentence is enough to let the reader know what's happening, if that's your concern. Other than that, I think you stated your reason for the rename well enough, Prime, but I just think it's not the right step to take. 17:43, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * They are the same character: I don't deny that. The reason I propose the split is because they're different versions of the same character. In the case of Lucy and Rogue's future versions, those two may have acted at the same time but part of the reason for that split is also the fact that they're different people. The Jellal thing you've mentioned doesn't even make sense. That's not a different version of Jellal; it's a difference in personality. It's still the same body and his continuity of existence is preserved, which does not happen with Zirconis. The Zirconis' we've seen are different from one another, even if they appeared one after the other. The Zirconis in the graveyard was a spirit who spoke to the Mages and then ascended to heaven. The Zirconis in the story right now is a living Dragon who's gonna fight them. He can't remember them cause he never technically met them; as Carla said. Here itself, we have the problem of the article listing him as "Active" when one of them is technically dead and the other is still alive.


 * The Jellal reference was used as an example of how the two characters are similar as neither is able to remember the past, and creating a page is unneeded as we do not know how the events will be played out. The Lucy and Rogue pages were created because we have two of the same characters roaming Crocus at the same time. Zirconis, on the other hand, is the same character, appearance, personality, Magic and whatnot. The only difference is the change in history, which doesn't effect the page at all as it is stated on the page how he managed to enter the current time period. On the page, we have him as active, not dead; we've already said the page says he was "brought" back via Eclipse. Zirconis is not two Dragons, Zirconis is one Dragon. 18:04, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * For the Jellal thing, it still doesn't work imo. That's a simple case of memory loss but we know the events happened as per the storyline. They didn't happen with Zirconis at the gate because they had nothing to do with Zirconis at the gate. There isn't anything for him to remember. And I don't agree with saying he was "brought" back via Eclipse because that'd mean he had to be there before. In this case, Zirconis is one Dragon in two different forms: Spirit and living and thus was not there before. The fact that they have two clearly different roles in the series, despite their appearances being the same (no need to list Magic on the spirit's page if we make it), still says to me that they need separate pages.


 * Well, if the memory thing does not relate, then the possession does. Because technically they are two different Jellal's: the one that was good and the one that was evil/possessed. As for the Zirconis thing, he was there before, someone or something can't be brought back to life unless they existed; further, I beg to differ, the events say to me that splitting the page is not the right step to take. At least not right now. 18:21, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and if the info box is what's bothering you, it would be much more simple to edit it: Click me 18:30, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * It still doesn't work because it's still Jellal. It's the same body and same soul in the same time period. The only thing that was affected was his personality and subsequent memory loss but the fact that he was shown through all of it still makes him the same being through it all, which can't be said for Zirconis since one clearly went to heaven and there's also one at the gate fighting. He was never brought back to life because he had never died. A living Zirconis was brought to the present and is still there but the Zirconis in the graveyard was already dead and spoke as a soul.
 * It's not the infobox, but thanks.


 * Like you said, following the storyline would dictate that Zirconis did indeed died. So basically he was brought back to life via the Eclipse Gate. 18:33, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * He did die, but he was killed by Acnologia and ascended to heaven after his talk with Wendy and the rest. If you want to argue that Eclipse brought him back, it'd be more along the lines of bringing him back to the story than to life. What Eclipse technically did was bring a previous version of him into the story by going into the past and that's not the same as resurrection.


 * Ahhh, since this is going nowhere and both of us clearly have a different view, I can only say I understand your argument, but I will still hold my oppose. 18:43, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Likewise.

Create a Zirconis (Spirit) page. This was like the deliberation on future Lucy's page. Both had and will have different experiences. 17:52, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, Zirconis' spirit will never appear again, Wendy has clearly said he has disappeared. 17:54, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is why I said "had" which refers to the spirit. 17:56, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alrighty but it still poses no problems for the article itself, in my opinion. As I said above, Lucy and Rogue ones were a problem because both counter-parts were acting at the same time. 17:58, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I respect your opinion. It doesn't really matter if they were on the same time but both have different experiences. If it will be understood on a simpler level, the spirit is dead and killed by Acnologia and the live one is battling Mira, Wendy and Charles. It would be better not to cram in the future and procrastinate the creation of the subject page.  18:15, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, it DOES matter because that was the very reason why Lucy got split in first place. In that sense, I still find having two pages unnecessary. Look at it from a potential reader's point of view. In my opinion, it will make things more confusing for him than keeping it in one page. At this point, it's like making a separate page for Rogue from the time-line where Lucy didn't close the gate <_< 18:49, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * How does splitting them up make things more confusing? If the articles are properly named and detailed with the plots of who they are about, then it's if anything less confusing since we'll know whether or not were're talking about a spirit or not as well as making things more fundamentally correct by having different pages for different versions of the character. Except for the fact that it's nothing like that at all. We know nothing about that Rogue and he hasn't appeared and thus there's no reason to make a page for him.
 * I just feel that having two separate articles for one character when there are little to no problems when it comes keeping all the information in one article makes it... overcomplicated. That's the word I was looking for, lol 19:01, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I still feel that different versions like this of a character need different articles, but I guess we won't be convincing one another =/
 * Lol, oh well. As above, let's just say that we understand each other's points but still have different opinions :P 19:11, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * No other course option, I guess =/

Sorry Prime, but I made the mistake about thinking more about my own honest preference, rather than giving the whole matter thought. It happens every now and then. I didn't think well into it, and after reading Misk and Mega's compelling arguments,. I don't know what course of action to take. In terms of personality, appearance, and even history to a large extent, these two Zirconis are one and the same. Although, your argument is also very compelling, as they do have different roles in the plot, and (I did use bad phrasing above) although they are the same "character", they are not. Sticking to one extreme apparently isn't my game this time around, so I'll change my vote to neutral. 18:21, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

The Eclipse Gate "splits" time, which also "splits" the events involved with characters that pass through the Gate. So now we have 2 different characters, one which was killed by Acnologia and one that will be killed by Bickslow (hopefully XD). So yeah, 2 different fates = 2 different characters. 18:23, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

If I remember well ( and my memories aren't always of good quality >.>) part of the reason Lucy and Rogue's pages were split was to avoid confusion. I don't think it's necessary to split Zirconis' one too, as the current Zirconis is dead, there's nothing really that confusing. Should be fine like this. 18:36, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

So far as we know, Rogue changed history by bringing the dragons into the future. This Zirconis we are seeing now is different than the Zirconis who's spirit we saw before. For all intents and purposes, they are the same as Future Rogue/Lucy and their present counterparts. They are from two different timelines and should be treated as two different characters--

Uniformity is an important aspect for any wiki. We can't create future pages for Lucy and Rogue and then not do it for Zirconis. The main argument I'm seeing for not going through with this change is that "Spirit Zirconis isn't going to appear anymore." Well, neither is future Lucy. We created Future Lucy and Future Rogue's pages not only to avoid confusion but because they were completely different characters. The same can be said for Zirconis's Spirit. My only little piece of advice is that we put some kind of note on Zirconis's page to alert people to the spirit page so they won't be confused about where his information went. 20:44,6/6/2013


 * Actually, the main argument (at least in my case) is that the two Zirconis' never existed, never acted, at the same time, while it's clear that both Lucy (and Rogue)'s actions would clash in one article, since they were doing stuff at the same time. That's not Zirconis' case, so you cannot apply the idea of uniformity here. It's different. Otherwise, I suggest creating a separate page for Levy writting a letter in the future of first timeline as it's clearly different than the present Levy. Or even a page for destroyed Mercurius, again it's a different Mercurius than the present one. See what I mean? Uniformity is nice and all, but this is overdoing it. If we keep creating unnecessary articles like this, we'll end up with bunch of pages that consist of one and the same thing, confusing not only ourselves but also potential readers. Sometimes it's better to keep things simple. It wasn't possible in Lucy and Rogue's cases, but it is here. Current page is the best option, in my opinion. It's clear and doesn't overcomplicate things.  21:46, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what you are suggesting is just because their actions never clashed we should just pretend as if they are one and the same? Just like Future Lucy and Future Rogue, Spirit Zirconis is from an alternate timeline than his "counterpart" so he should have his own page. He is different in the sense that his actions don't clash with his counterpart's actions, but that doesn't change the fact that he isn't the Zirconis that has been fighting Wendy and Mirajane. One thing that I've learned after all my time on this wiki is that the "uncomplicated way" or the "most desirable way" is not always the most accurate way. Would it be nice to just lump all the Future/Current pages together and be done with it? Yes. But doing so would not be accurate by any means. Mashima confused things by playing around with time in this arc, and we have to accommodate that whether we want to or not. 21:59,6/6/2013
 * Misk, the fact remains that they are two separate characters. They have experienced different events in their lifetimes and will never be one and the same. Sure, their actions don't overlap, but they are separate characters. I see no reason two characters should be lumped together on the same page just because they share the same name--
 * We do not need to pretend anything as the article clearly states all the events that lead to his both appearances. I do understand they are not excatly the same, but it's still 'Zirconis' so keeping it in 'Zirconis' article should be perfectly fine. As I said, it wasn't possible to keep Future Lucy in Lucy's article due to them acting at the same time. Zirconis is different. His article is clear and accurate as it is now. Again, shall we also make Future Levy article to follow this whole idea of uniformity? -- 22:21, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * We just might actually. As it is now, her information is just thrown in the middle of Levy's synopsis as if it was Levy herself. As far as Zirconis goes, Prime said it best: "They are the same character.... but they're different versions of that character". And it's ridiculous to put all the different versions of a character on one page simply because they're actions don't clash. 22:32,6/6/2013


 * Alrighty then. In the end, as you said, it indeed makes no sense for Future Levy to be randomly inserted in the present Levy's article as they will eventually clash due to present Levy doing different stuff in future... which will result into Lucy/Rogue situation. But that's not the case with Zirconis, while there are multiple 'versions', they do not overlap and are one 'character', thus I still think one 'character' page is enough. Well, I think I've explained my opinion quite enough, so I'm gonna stop here. I'll open up a discussion for Levy, if it's okay, though later as I'm on my phone right now.. you have no idea what kind of hell I've been through to type all this stuff x_x -- 23:07, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lol, that's fine. And I don't see how you managed to multi-task like that. :D 23:13,6/6/2013

If we're going to use the logic of "different counterparts and different times" and if we're considering to make a Future Levy page since she lived under a different timeline, we should create Future counterpart pages for the Sting that was killed, the Igneel and Grandeeney known by Atlas Flame and Spirit Zirconis respectively and the 3 characters that Levy listed in the letter (upon finding out their identities). All of them are from different times and have lived different lives too so they fall under the same category. Future Lucy and Future Rogue were created because they co-existed alongside their present counterparts. Zirconis did not. If anything, Spirit Zirconis seems to have his section pretty well written under the History part of the article. Uniformity cannot always prevail in situations like this. 23:55, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * No we don't. Characters mentioned don't have to have pages unless they make appearances. In fact, the only time I can think of us actually making pages for mentioned characters is Mavis Vermilion before her appearance and Cana's mother. And the only reason we made pages for them is because they had significant mentions. Future Sting being mentioned as dead is not a significant mention and does not warrant a page by any means. Are you suggesting the way Levy's page is handled now is acceptable? Because I surely don't consider it so. Future Lucy and Future Rogue were created for two purposes: To avoid confusion and because they are not the same as their current counterparts. Whether it is well written or not changes nothing. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And it will still be wrong whether it is written so badly that it makes us all cringe or if it is so well written that it sounds like J.K. Rowling herself wrote it. 00:02,6/7/2013
 * To Umnei, you've described this discussion in a nutshell *Claps*. 00:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Jakuho, we've made several other pages with just a mentioning of the character. Take Wakaba's Daughter for example. 00:05, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but I still find her page much more significant than a Future Sting page that contains no information, but the fact that he died. Or a Future Igneel page that says "He once battled Atlas Flame." 00:09,6/7/2013


 * It may be more significant but the point is that they were both mentionings... no wait the MAIN point was that it was a different timeline lol but nonetheless its using the same logic, just not in appearance form but in a mentioning, which we seem to accomodate. By the way, what do we do with current Zirconis' "History"?   00:21, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't understand your message after the ellipsis. >_> And if the pages are split, his current history would be moved to the Spirit page since saying he was killed by Acnologia doesn't really fit if he's alive. 00:27,6/7/2013
 * Also, how do we handle the personality section? There are traits he showed as a Spirit but not as his current appearance and vice versa... See what I mean by making things overcomplicated? <_< 10:22, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then it's not overcomplicated at all if there are differences between the two. If anything, that's all the more reason to split the page.
 * It does make it overcomplicated. If we indeed consider them different, then, for example, we cannot put on Spirit's page that he likes eating women more than men because the Spirit never stated it, even though it's clear as night that since they're the same character in sense that they haven't undergone any changes like Future Rogue, they should share the same personality... So I still believe that having information about the same character spread throughout multiple pages makes it more difficult than needed. 10:36, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's still a different edition of the character so excluding that information doesn't harm the article at all. We don't even know about the spirit's magic in the first place so the removal of clothes in eating preferences shouldn't even be an issue. A split may prevent such obvious information from being added but that's a minor consequence at best.

I think it's a bit creepy that the talk about the page split is several times longer than the actuap page....

Anyway I'm also for a split, if only for consistancy if nothing else. NoNickNeeded (talk) 11:36, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

what reli and rai said

becauses of reasons im too lazy to discuss-- 20:21, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

I actually wrote something very long for my reason before, having a neutral as my vote. However, as I was reading it, I kinda realized that it's really confusing, so I change my vote to support now, even though I have not posted it before :3 Well, the factors that affected my vote are:
 * A. I see nothing wrong with it.
 * B. I believe Zirconis' spirit has a different plot too, like what Rif said.
 * C. Actually, they are not the same character anymore. The current Zirconis, who's stripping people their dignity, would be the past Zirconis. Why? Because he came from 400 years ago. =_= Coming from different timeline would make you a different character, either from the future or past. And, on the other hand, Zirconis' spirit would be the future self of the past Zirconis, which would mean that spirit Zirconis is the present one. So, now we have two Zirconis: the past Zirconis who's roaming, and the past Zirconis' future, his spirit.
 * D. What we did with Frogue and Flucy would apply here.
 * E. I believe it would shoo away a bunch of the reader's confusion.
 * F. To maintain uniformity.
 * G. I find it unfair for Zirconis not to have a split page like Fguys have >___>