Forum:Tabs

Okay, so I've been mulling this idea over for a long time, and since certain pages have started to get unbelievably long, I feel it's time we finally had a discussion about.... tabs. Tabs, I find, are much like abortion. People are usually either for them or hate them with every fiber of their being. But I'm starting to think we'll need them for our longer pages. But, before I get into why I believe so, and my stance on them, I'd like to have a discussion about what everyone thinks about tabs, why they think so, and whether or not you find them harmful or beneficial. This is not a vote. So I will literally choke the first person I see use a Support/Oppose/Neutral template. Just tell me what you think about the idea. Also, I'm not going to put an edit limit on this discussion because I don't like doing jerky things like that for discussions because I feel everyone should be free to, at the very least, express their opinions. But, comments like "I like tabs!" are not really welcome here. >_> Simply because saying that you like tabs without any explanation as to why doesn't help at all. Also, everyone remember to keep this discussion civil please. Whether this discussion leads to anything is largely dependent upon what we discuss here. 00:57,8/17/2013

I'm not fazed by them. But honestly; the ParentTab template looks like shit. Make some decent ones with hover effects. :3 01:01, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

If the tabs are stylized and centered, I see no reason why we shouldn't have them. However, if we're talking about the Parent Tabs (which are fucking ugly), then there is no way I would enjoy, nor support, seeing those printed on the pages of our wiki. 01:07, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I hate tabs. They look like shit and only cause a ton of confusion to editors and readers. When we tabbed Ichigo's page on Bleach wiki, I got 50+ questions a day asking where different parts of his page went. In my opinion, pages are meant to be long. Wikipedia doesn't use tabs on any of their pages and Wikipedia looks nice. Then you look at OP wiki and their pages look like shit because the info doesn't flow and there are those giant disruptive tabs there. I'd support text reductions rather than tabs--

@ Fallen and Wrath -___- Stylization is literally our wiki's specialty. In fact, we have an official wiki team dedicated to doing just that. I can assure you making the tabs look good isn't a problem by any means. This discussion is more to see what everyone thinks about tabs in general functionality and all that jazz. :P 01:11,8/17/2013

@Rai You don't say? I was a part of said team, whore. -__- 01:14, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

*Waits to be choked* Can't touch this, bitch! ಠ_ಠ Nah, jk.

I think the idea sounds decent, but at the same time I can't bring myself to picture how the pages will look, or if it will become easier or harder to navigate around the article. Would it be possible for you to create a sample page even though this is just to hear us out? (Don't send me to the OP wiki!) Also, would they be used on every page? Or just the long ones; mainly main characters I suppose, if it's the latter. One other little concern is the appearance of the tabs. I myself got rid of the "Parent Tab" on my profile due to their looks. But reading above I guess the DoD would handle that. 01:15, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

@Flipsy, Our pages are a bit different than Wikipedia's though. For one, we have the Oasis skin which means that our pages get a lot longer with a lot less information. In addition, we use a lot of pictures and animated gifs. Those combined with the length of some pages can make articles hard to load. And length of loading aside, it can be a bit unattractive as well per Lucy's article. @Mega Yeah, I could post an example of what it could possibly look like. And it would only be for main characters with long pages (Natsu, Lucy, Erza, Gray, etc.). As far as appearance goes, yeah, DOD could prettify it without much trouble at all. 01:24,8/17/2013


 * Solution to that, we put up a big notice on the main page saying "This wiki is designed for Monobook. If you want to see the site properly, please use the Monobook skin." :D--
 * Monobook sucks though. 01:29, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * What Fallen said. 01:30, August 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, great minds do think alike. ಠ◡ಠ 01:31, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's definitely a possibility. But I think a big notice saying "Fuck Monobook and all the weirdos who use it" would be so much better. :) 01:32,8/17/2013
 * If you ever want to get into Glass' pants, you need to learn to love Monobook. Don't be jealous just because you don't know how to skin it--
 * I just saw this one, and.. And.. *chooses not to speak* I shall continue using Monobook.
 * I like Raddy Jak's notice option. With no reason behind it whatsoever. *cough*Exept that Monobook sucks*cough*... :3 WU out -  14:48, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

(Reset Indent) I see what you did there, God. ಠ_ರೃ 01:40, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Glass is wearing a permanent chastity belt as far as I'm concerned. >_> And silence whore! Monobook 'tis not for hipsters such as myself. ;P 01:43,8/17/2013

Pfft. Rai? A hipster? XDD

I had to express my disdain in a way that lacked the risk of being choked. =D 02:06, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Get back to swimming Wrath.
 * All done. =D 02:12, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

i think that tabs would be a good thing for some of the long pages on this wiki and since we have the DoD team to make sure they look good that takes care of the main problem of them looking bad. As for flipsy's concern about them causing confusing, im not really sure that its gonna be a problem i mean its really simple and easy to navigate (and btw the OP wiki's pages dont look like shit, theyre fine). so ya to recap i would be in Support(i didnt use the template rai, keep your skirt on) of this because I like tabs!(ಠ◡ಠ u mad bro?)-- 02:14, August 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey Nucky. Do me a favor and die. ಠ_ಠ 22:02,8/17/2013


 * Hey Rai. Do me a favour and spell favour correctly. ಠ_ಠ 22:06, August 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry Nucky, I know you Canadians conform to the ways of the British, but we Americans are free thinkers, and refuse to throw unnecessary "u"'s around. 22:10,8/17/2013


 * "free thinkers"? bitch plz, youre just children throwing a temper tantrum and doing things differently then your superior siblings and parent because you want to be recognized-- 22:16, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather have tabber than tabs.

Lemme just say that the Bleach wiki's tab system looks horrible, I hate just looking at it, much less actually use it. In the other hand, I actually like them in the OP wiki but that's just because I never have to see the long synopsis for each Straw Hat. The only real problem with the length of the pages is the synopsis, which is extremely long for Natsu, Lucy, Erza and Gray (and maybe even Happy) but I would really hate to have just one tab leading to the synopsis and I would also hate to have to use tabs just because of the synopis, so I'd much rather use tabber, like Munchy suggested 04:30, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Few things. Firstly, the synopsis and the Appearances in Other Media are both problems, and if we did tabs, we would not have one tab leading to synopsis. There would be several tabbed items including things like "Appearance in Other Media, Relationships, etc." And frankly, with all the other stuff removed, Synopsis would likely be able to stay on the main page. Secondly, as far as tabbers go, that is probably the worst possible solution for the pages. At the very most, we'll have many 5-6 tabs, but there are 16 story arcs each with long names, so, if we used tabbers, instead of five tabs at the top of the page, we'd have 16 tabbers (plus all the new arcs that will happen) in the middle of the page and 32 tabbers at the bottom of her page for the Appearances in Other Media section. And since there are a lot of tabs the names of the tabbers will have to be long and they will have to stack on top of each other which will look incredibly unattractive. And to top it all off, tabbers won't contribute to speeding up the speed in which the articles load. Tabbers are in no way a good idea. 05:23,8/17/2013

Then I wont suggest anymore.


 * I thought we had a talk about being sensitive? 05:28,8/17/2013
 * We did? I don't remember.
 * Really? -___- Well, I believe I said something on the lines of "stop being so sensitive." 05:37,8/17/2013
 * I have every right to do so, isn't it?
 * It depends on the situation. But you really have to understand that everything that is said is not something that is meant to be taken personally. >_> But, we'll have this discussion elsewhere. This isn't the time or place. 06:39,8/17/2013
 * Oh no, I am not taking this personally at all, I just said that I wont suggest anymore, and you brought that up. O_o I'll just go with whatever the community decides on, so.. Yeah.
 * O, then this is awkward. >_> 06:48,8/17/2013
 * You brought this on yourself.
 * Father&Son quarrles... Always so enjoyable :D WU out -  15:07, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

While I agree that the tabs would look really ugly, I also agree that some pages are so long, it's hard to navigate through it and is being a nuisance. I would like to see some tabs created and see how the layout would look before we make anything official. 05:44, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion isn't to officialize anything. It's to gauge people's reactions to tabs and see if there are any legitimate benefits for getting tabs/reasons to not get them. I do plan on making an example page, though, the example page will be using the parent tabs since we haven't crated any new tabs yet. 05:53,8/17/2013
 * Silly Rai, you didn't gauge me hard enough. ;) Alright well if that's the case, then ultimately, Tabs would look ugly unless they are created and stylized very well to suit the article's wiki and its theme. It seems we have long pages now too so... [same answer as previous before Rai accused me of not gauging hard enough *blush*]. 06:04, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * But Nei-Chan, you are incredibly complicated and always hard to gauge. :D 06:08,8/17/2013
 * And don't you forget it. ;) 06:51, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'm all for the tabs on the longest of pages. With byte counts in the hundreds of thousands, pages load slowly in both the editor as well as visually. Since we'd obviously have the DOD design nice-looking tabs to suit the wiki's style, we wouldn't really have an appearance problem. If we deem it necessary, I can't see the drawbacks outweighing the benefits.

I'm either way with this. Whilst I do believe some of the pages are getting waaaaay too long, if we do introduce tabs they will have to be well done. Personally, I'm more for a tabber, but as Jak said, that could be messy due to the amount of arcs :/ Maybe we could have 2? Like, a pre-timeskip arc one and post-timeskip arc one? :/ I dunno... I'm just a little hesitant to move synopsis to separate pages entirely ( .__.) Whatever though, I guess we can get into a deeper discussion later on~ 08:06, August 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of havin' the tabs but not the parent template tab(the design totally sucks).--

I cannot exactly imagine how it'd work (I don't think I've seen it before), but as long as it looks good and is convenient enough, why not. Also, how about galleries? Some of them are pretty long too. 13:24, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * This and this are two examples of tabs being used on pages on other wikis. Obviously though, we would use them in a way that would be suitable for our wiki so this is just to give you a rough idea. As to your gallery question, that's an interesting idea but I'm not quite sure how it'd work seeing as our galleries already use the switch templates to shuffle between cover pages, black and white, openings, anime, e.t.c. Still, might be worth looking into.

I haven't read all the essay-long messages above yet, so I'll just state my opinion for starters. I think tabs would be beneficial for long pages, and I honestly cannot see any other way for them to get shorter. However, if we do choose to add the tabs system, we'll have to also make them good looking, and maybe add a minimum amount of words an article must have before getting it...tabbed. All in all, I like the idea, but it's all about how it will be executed in the articles. 13:57,8/17/2013

@Rai, Hmmm yeah, tabber would look ugly cuz there would be too many header. But if we do tabs, there has to be one for history and synopsis. 14:08, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

I've not read all of the messages above either, so I'm not all that ceratin of other peoples opinions, but I'll give you mine. As I am a frequent User on the One Piece Wiki, I am used to the Community tabbing of long Articles, and honestly I think it might be a good idea for this Wiki too. As Raven said above, I don't really see any other probable way for them to get shorter, other than tabbing them of. Ofc, as many others has already said, we'll have to make them fit into FT Wiki's style of design, but I don't think that would be a problem with such good coders around.

So yeah, I do overally support of the Tabbing idea. The was for you Raddy Jak! (Just felt like testin' my Raddy's way of punishing his sons, despite Choko already warning me... Heheh :D) WU out -  15:03, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

@Yummy If we moved other things on the page, there's no 100% guarantee that synopsis has to move anywhere. @Raven Execution will be discussed later. This was just a primary discussion to get thins moving and gauge opinions. @Reli I wouldn't really put history and synopsis together. History would most likely just stay on the main page with all the other information. @WU All my children are testing mah patience. -___- 22:01,8/17/2013

Jakuwhore, have you taken a look at the code for the parent tab template? Its fucking massive. Completely redesigning it for use on this wiki would be a massive undertaking, even for the DoD. Im still more in favor of text reductions than tabs--


 * Redesigning would be challenging, but it wouldn't be impossible. Besides, the parent tab template has a lot of unnecessary coding. It could be shaved down. And as far as text reductions go, they help, but they can only go so far. And that still wouldn't change the fact that the TOCs look shitty because of the Omakes. Also, take a look at the Tab template I have on the site. It's coding is much simpler than the one at the OP wiki.22:25,8/17/2013

@Rai, I don't see the point of tabs if the synopsis stays on the main page 22:25, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't really speak for what exactly will be tabbed at the moment. I'm only dealing in hypotheticals. The nitty gritty details are things that can only be decided if we choose to go the tab route. 22:29,8/17/2013


 * well then I'll leave it as: I'm up for tabs if synopsis gets its own page outside of the main, if not, then I'll oppose it with all my soul 22:35, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Most everyone here has stipulations and I'm just trying to figure out if this will work, and if it does, how it will work. 22:37,8/17/2013


 * well you should make the sample already to see if people change their minds about tabs 22:43, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm holding off on the sample for now. People know what tabs look like (Prime provided to examples), and making a sample page with no idea of what tabs we, on this wiki, are going to use or having a design in mind would not be a good idea. 22:50,8/17/2013
 * The Buildings of Fairy Tail, Phantom Lord, and even the Blue Pegasus has tabs, if I remember it correctly.


 * Yup, but that's different because they are all separate articles, not one article divided into pieces 04:06, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * ^^^^What Leli said. WU out -  14:03, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * its not that different though, its the same idea just applied to a single page rather then just to a group of pages. either way the pages are related to each other-- 16:07, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Sooo, when are we gonna move on to the main voting? WU out -  18:02, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Soon. But first, a bit more discussion. :P Okay, so what I've gathered. Mostly everyone here is, at the very least, okay with the idea of tabs. Now I'd like to know if anyone had any ideas about how the pages could be separated? 22:12,8/20/2013

22:20, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Main
 * Intro
 * Appearance
 * Personality
 * Battles & Events
 * Trivia
 * Quotes
 * Synnopis
 * History
 * Synopsis
 * Magic and Abilities
 * Magic
 * Abilities
 * Equipment
 * Relationships
 * Appearances in Other Media
 * Omakes
 * OVAs
 * Movie
 * Video Games

--
 * Tab 1
 * Intro
 * Appearance
 * Personality
 * History
 * Synopsis
 * Tab 2
 * Magic
 * Abilities
 * Equipment
 * Relationships
 * Tab 3
 * Omakes
 * OVAS
 * Movie
 * Video Games

My list would go:
 * Overview
 * Appearance
 * Personality
 * History
 * Magic and Abilities
 * Equipment
 * Trivia
 * Quotes
 * Synopsis
 * Relationships
 * Appearances in Other Media
 * Omakes
 * OVAs
 * Movie
 * Video Games
 * Image Gallery

Magic and Abilities, in my opinion, is not really long enough to get it's own tab. Plus, to me, it just seems like something that belongs on the main tab. 22:35,8/20/2013

this is only for Natsu, Lucy, Gray and Erza, whose M&A section are the biggest of them all. Also, Image Gallery doesn't need a tab cuz its already in the infobox. it looks bad as a tab too 22:37, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I think not putting synopsis and history on the main page is really ugly. I hate going to OP wiki because their info is too separated and just looks bad--

I like it because I don't have to look at ginormous walls of text 22:46, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

-- 22:47, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Introdution
 * Introduction
 * Appearance
 * Personality
 * Relationships
 * Quotes
 * Trivia
 * Abilities and Magic
 * Abilities
 * Magic
 * Equipment
 * Synopsis
 * History
 * Synopsis
 * Battles and Events
 * Appearances in Other Media
 * Omakes
 * OVAs
 * Movie(s) - there's gonna be more
 * Video Games

@Reli Their M&A sections are longer than the other character's yes, but the only person's whose long enough to actually justify being tabbed off is Erza's due to her armor's. Natsu, Gray's, & Lucy's still have good lengths. Also, this will also be for characters like Happy, and look at how short his M&A section is. That really wouldn't look good tabbed off. Also, how exactly does a tab look "bad?" @Flipsy I agree, History does look bad off the Main Page. But the synopsis sections are extremely long, and are pretty much the main thing that need tabbing off. 22:47,8/20/2013

I disagree, I think the main thing that needs to be tabbed off is the appearances in other media--

@Rai, it don't matter if Happy's is short and I just don't like the Image Gallery as a tab 22:53, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

While it is true that the Appearance in Other Media section is long and ugly on the TOC, Synopsis is much longer. And tabbing off AOM and M&A won't really cut down too much. Look at Natsu's page who hasn't had the unbearable AOM remodeling yet. Your version of the Tab really won't do much at all to cut down on his current page length. 22:54,8/20/2013

Thats why I support text reduction. Its pretty easy to shave 20,000 bytes or more of these long pages--

@Reli I think it matters. Having two or three paragraphs on a page and calling it a tab is not really attractive... at all. And yes, because that's always a valid reason. ;P 22:56,8/20/2013

yes, those are my valid reasons and I will stand by them :P 22:58, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

And once again, text reductions are only a temporary fix, and a minor temp. fix at best (20,000 bytes off a 332,984 byte is not much). 22:58,8/20/2013

Taking the synopsis off the main page is, as far as keeping the pages loading fast and efficiently, a good idea, but as far as aesthetics go, it's ugly. Here's what I came up with:

Tab 1
 * Appearance
 * Personality
 * History
 * Synopsis

Tab 2
 * M&A
 * Equipment/Former Equipment
 * B&E
 * Trivia

Tab 3
 * Appearances in Other Media
 * Omakes
 * OVAs
 * Movie(s)
 * Video Games
 * Relationships

All this and a combination of text reduction of the synopses would do us wonders; it might even prevent some pages from needing tabs in general. Also, not a fan of image galleries as tabs. ( ._.) 23:10, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Text reduction + Tabs is a marvelous idea. Without tabs, however, it's just not that effective in the long run. Also, your list... makes me want to puke. :D 23:14,8/20/2013
 * Together it's great; at least we agree on that. On another note, my list makes me want to puke too, though that might be because I'm not feeling the greatest. Your fatherly love is always appreciated. =D 23:18, August 20, 2013 (UTC)